I never understood this deal. We trade our only real scoring threat outside of D west (& Cp3 on some nights) for a big who, if lucky, will get us to maybe the second round at best... smh. Marcus tear it up in Sacramento and come back next year
« In the NO Podcast 21: Trade Fallout
In the NO Podcast Episode 22: Bar Vultures »
My Final Marcus Comment
Everyone knows that I am a big supporter of Marcus and I wanted to watch a couple of games with Marcus and Landry on their new teams respectively.
Yes I watched all 3 marcus games and all 3 Landry games on their new teams.
I am sorry that many will disagree with me but how the heck do you trade a guy with so much potential for a solid role player who wont push us over the top or make a significant impact to get us farther in the playoffs. Yes landry is an upgrade over smith and other PF but he doesnt give us that extra push which marcus would have been able to do with more experience.
Marcus currently has 20 points for the Kings in 17 min against the Clips. Landry and 95% of the league cant do this. He has a unique talent that not everyone has. You cant give up someone like this for a quality role player.
I have always liked landry as a player and yes he is a huge upgrade over smith anderson and whoever else we can throw out there.
But the kings were a desperate team who likely would of gave landry away for a lot less in my opinion and i think it was an awful idea for us to offer up thorton. Time will tell about this trade.
If someone give me a +/- comparision i will ignore it because this is the most overrated stat in basketball by far, ask any expert.
I miss marcus sorry and watching him and beno udrih killing the clippers makes me wish he was still with us even more.
This post was submitted by HiMyNameisSteven.
Since this thread went in all sorts of directions, for the record: I think the Thornton-Landry trade was a good one.
To me it is not about bashing or praising MT5, it all comes down to : Wille/Marcus/J Smith vs. Willie/ Belly/ Landry When given those two choices, I don't even hesitate, especially when I see how wonderful Marco has been as an 8th man. I wish Marcus all the best and I am sure he will get his numbers now (and hopefully a big contract from an Eastern Conference team that he can reinvest back into New Orleans), but this team is a contender now if we can kidnap '08 CP3. I couldn't have said the same with Jason Smith getting minutes.
Your argument is the correct from the perspective of economic theory: You have to look at the proper segment of the `bundle of goods' and the effect of substitution on it. ((Willie+Marco+Marcus+Jack(2))+(Smith))-((Willie/Marco/Jack(2))+(Smith+Landry)), adjusted for minutes, abstractly speaking. You can toss in the Center minutes/guys if you want. That quantity being negative, if goodness can be a number, means we did well with the trade. Whether it was the best of all possible trades requires more parentheses . . . I'm sorry you guys have to see the way I think, but blame Mike for nudging me over this particular edge.
Guys, it's an empirical question and the relevant information is readily available. Willie Green's true shooting percentage over the course of his career is .488. Thornton's over the course of his career is .536. Thornton is the more efficient scorer. They are similar players in some ways, but Thornton is a better 3-point shooter and gets to the lane and draws fouls much more frequently. Thornton is young and was even more efficient when given significant time during his rookie season, so there's reason to think his ceiling in terms of scoring efficiency is higher than his career numbers. If you want to look at this season alone, Green and Thornton have been about the same, Green with the edge .518 to .505. If you look more closely, you'll see that Green has been more successful on 2-point buckets than career norms this season and Thornton less, while Thornton's core advantages over Green--3s and free throws, remain intact. So Thornton remains the better bet when it comes to scoring efficiency going forward. Regardless, for whatever reason, BOTH have been inadequate THIS SEASON when it comes to scoring efficiency. None of this speaks to other facets of their games, but I hope this answers your question 42.
I love Marcus, but I also think Landry is a great player as well and fills a bigger need for us. It's a business. Got to get over things like this.
Hornets needed a backup big. Badly. I understand the trade. But Marcus has something in his blood regarding basketball! I can't understand his lack of playing time. Three game in that team and he found a place for himself quickly. 3 days and he decided a game already, one of the most important of the season for that team. When he was in this team he showed that he could handle the pressure of a high intensity game against good teams and be clutch in some of those games. That's what it's needed to be, one day not that far away, a great sidekick for a championship team. Most of the guys i read here will never be. Belinelli? Willie? BOGANS?!?! How good a player like that can become if well coached in his career? How great would be if that player was from Louisiana for this team? Marcus fit so well in these team offense.. He has an above-average defensive upside.. And sometimes he wins games out of nowhere.. Next season, after we wouldn't win the championship this year, will this team be a step closer to be a contender thanks to this trade ? I don't think so.
Thornton didn't fit this team because he is best as a ball-dominant player. And we already have CP3 and David West for that. Any time that he had the ball means that our best two players didn't. Thornton would take low% shots early in the shot clock when other, better options were on the floor. Yes, he made them fairly often, but it is not something a coach wants. On defense, we appear to be a switch heavy team. Marcus gets hung up on screens and sometimes forgets to rotate. This kills the defense as it leaves a shooter open. Watch him if he ever has to guard Ray Allen. Thornton is a good player. Not transcendent or great, but good. However, his play style (that he was not able to change this season) does not fit the way Monty is getting the team to work. Our dream SG (for this system) would be someone in the mold of Ray Allen, actually. Work heavily off of screens, hit open jumpers, bury pressure 3s. Also, do work on defense and be attentive.
He changed his "style" for some games. And CP3 this year, whenever he has the ball wants to pass it. Our starting lineup needs a third threat on offense because we have Emeka and Ariza who are not efficient on a consistent base. Thornton was that third option on offense. He would fit great on offense with other starters because often he did when he had the possibility. Now that third offensive option is landry.. But he's going to be on the bench when we are going to need the most that offensive presence.
Michael, you ask: "Is Willie Green such a 'black markâ€™ because of his performance or because his name is Willie Green?" The answer is, well, both. Let's start with his performance. Looking at the season as a whole, Green has not been productive. If one prefers the "eye test"--We've seen a chucker with horrific (at times laugh-out-loud funny) shot selection...an inefficient scorer who doesn't get to the line and loves off-balance mid-range jumpers...a player who despite these deficiencies loves to call his own number, does not set up teammates, and goes through stretches of dominating the ball...a moderately skilled ballhandler who turns the ball over more than you'd like given the lack of playmaking...and a high-effort, physical defender who has trouble staying in front of faster guards and whose lack of length makes him ineffective rotating out to shooters. If one prefers traditional numbers, we can see that he shoots 32.7% from beyond the arc, 45% from the field, and puts up a non-descript 8.5/2/1 in 21 minutes a game. If one prefers advanced metrics, he has a PER of 11, WP48 of .001, negative adjusted plus-minus. In short, however you slice it, he has not been a productive player this season. He's adequate if mediocre off the bench. If he's your starting two guard, that's not so good. So...about his name. It's not the name itself ("Willie Green" is actually a good basketball name!) or the fact that Green is non-famous and non-hyped. The trouble is that the name "Willie Green" is attached to a player that has been in the league for eight years and has established a track record. And while Green has been offensively streaky within seasons, he has been consistently mediocre when we look at his seasons as a whole. The production that he is giving this season looks like the subpar production he's always given. He's 29 years old. This is who he is. You mentioned OJ Mayo, who has also not been productive this season. Who knows what will become of him, but the obvious difference (aside from their names) is that OJ Mayo is 23 years old, has had sustained periods of good production in the past, and has a shooting form and athleticism that make many scouts believe he has potential. There is reason to hope that OJ Mayo has more to offer than what we've seen this season. Not so with Green. Because Green has a long track record of mediocrity and has no upside in the eyes of scouts and front offices in the league--yes, of course we "expect that he will eventually fizzle" and that temporary periods of being productive are a "fluke." Indeed, despite the fact that 1) Green has not been very good this season and 2) Green's production this season is awfully similar to the production he's offered his entire career, you believe that we should instead look at a small sample of 10 games as a starter during which he's been shooting the ball well. Green started 152 games on some terrible 76ers teams over the last three years and during that time offered the mediocre production we've seen over the course of this season. So I disagree that Green has been shooting better of late because he is starting. I think the simpler answer is that it's just a hot streak thanks to a small sample size and that Green will regress to the player he's always been. And that player, when paired along with an offensively challenged defensive specialist at the other wing spot in Ariza...that's a real problem in the playoffs. Teams that have as much trouble scoring as this squad does run into major problems in the playoffs and if Green produces during the playoffs like he has throughout his career, we're in trouble. You're hoping that instead he performs more like he has over the last 10 games. I hope you're right, but color me skeptical. And I'm 5'9, so you can lob whatever insults at me you like! :)
I just think he is a role player that hasn't done such a bad job- similar to when Roger Mason was on San Antonio. He is a journeyman as well, but you can't have a star on every team. If CP3 was playing like old CP3, the Hornets would have 40-43 wins by now and we would be pumped about the performance we are getting from a Willie/Marco combo since they found their true roles. I mean, compare them to the 07-08 Mo Pete/Bonzi combo that we went into the playoffs with. Instead, CP3 is playing awful and the Hornets are losing, so we are praying for Marcus to come back. I firmly believe we are getting enough from our 2 guard position, considering we have done far more as a team with far less at SG in the past. The problem is that the straw who is supposed to stir the drink is broken. Maybe temporarily, maybe permanently.
Well, Mason shot the lights out from 3 the only year he got significant minutes with the Spurs, and as a spot shooter on a team with three elite shot creators, he was a nice fit. As soon as he declined to production more in line with what Green is giving us this year, the Spurs stopped playing him and then dumped him. But in any case, as a role player, as a guy that gives you 15 minutes off the bench, Green is fine. If he is your starting 2 guard, it's a weakness. If he is your starting 2 guard and he's lining up with a defensive-specialist wing who is offensively inept...you have a real problem. My view is that this would be a weakness that would limit this team's ceiling EVEN IF PAUL WAS PLAYING BETTER. Indeed, the examples of previous off guards illustrate this point: Mo Peterson in 07-08 and Rasual Butler in 08-09 offered slightly more production than Willie Green this season. It was a problem then. It's a problem now. I think where we probably disagree sharply is your concept of Green and Belli "since they found their true roles." I take this to mean that you believe that the production offered by Green and Belli over the last 9 games, which has been significantly higher than their career numbers, is what we can expect going forward. I expect we'll see "regression to the Green." Also, cannot say enough--a role player is all about fit, and Green in particular is just a terrible fit alongside Paul and Ariza.
that should actually be "last 8 games"--it's an 8-game stretch since Willie was made starter. he had two starts earlier in the year when Belli was out.
I don't think Willie Green is the problem nearly as much as JJ. Green is playing as well as he can, and while it's not a fluke per say, I don't expect him to score more than 10 a game consistently. His defense is over-rated. Marco is the better defender of the two against more athletic players. But to counter your offensive efficency fallacy, here are some stats since you like them so much. Thornton on the Kings has put up something like 59 points on 46 shots while playing starter minutes, 1.28 pps. Willie Green has put up 39 points on 34 shots, 1.15 pps in that same time span. Thornton will only continue to improve as he gets more love from the refs. Green has averaged 1.06 pps for his career, and just 1.12 pps this season.
You spent time gathering facts and communicating them, then in a flash ensured that they'd get no attention by talking about Mr. McNamara himself and not his position or claims. Do us all a favor: give us your opinions, your analysis, your facts, your humor. You know drives me up a wall... Mr. McNamara from early this season was higher than others on Willie and lower than others on Smith... And was right. The dude knows his stuff, and we can all learn from him. Don't get me wrong, I'm training hard and eating my Wheaties so I can tattoo his ass in an argument one day, it'll be a long time before that particular bear gets that particular guy. This isn't because he's a prick, or worse, a knob (antipodal disposition, in fact), but because even a small victory over him means I have done something right. These guys here are among 'the best'. We should be testing them, as iron sharpens iron, but because we respect them and their talents. To be the man, you gotta beat the man. Mr. McNamara: One day... You are warned...
why hate on smith? its really only his second year playing and i honestly think that he can be a solid role player in the future once he can control his game better, but while staying aggresive, and bulk up to play better d... i am not so down on jason
I think a re-read will show that I'm not being unfair to Smith. I said that many were high on him, calling him a solid backup, while Mike said he was over-achieving. Folks were so high on Smith that Mike actually humorously used to term "Christ-like" in a description of Smith. And now we traded to improve upon his exact position.
Is Willie Green such a "black mark' because of his performance or because his name is Willie Green? What I mean by that, is that unless he just rips it up, people will always expect that he is eventually fizzle and that when he plays this well (14 PPG , 50% FG in 10 games as a starter) we just think it is a fluke. Imagine OJ Mayo got inserted into the Memphis starting lineup and played that efficient- what would people say? Bottom line is that he has been playing well and Marco has improved since going to an 8th man role (8.5 PPG on 56.5% FG in 15 MPG). Combined the guys are putting up nearly 23 PPG, shooting 53% in 45 MPG. I will take that ALL DAY from my shooting guard position, and if I just said that a playoff team in the West had a SG combo putting up those numbers, you would have been very impressed. But since their names are Belinelli and Green, we just cant do that, can we? Those guys give us 80% of that in the playoffs and we can win. That is, if we can get '08 or '09 CP3 back.
I'll also say this--whether or not Marcus Thornton was the answer, by far the biggest black mark on Dell Demps is that we'll be heading to the playoffs with Willie Green as a starter. Backup big was probably more pressing but the failure to get a decent 2-guard lowers this team's ceiling dramatically. This is a problem magnified by the makeup of our squad. We need Ariza's defense. But a team that plays Ariza 38 minutes a game better damn well have an offensive threat at the 2 because he is a black hole offensively. Worse, this year's version of Paul doesn't carry much of the offensive load and runs a lot of kickouts to the wings...the result is ugly. Our offense just isn't consistently efficient enough to make noise in the playoffs. (By contrast, the Bulls can better cope with their hole at 2 guard because they have an offensive threat at the 3 and a scoring machine at the 1.)
I think it was a good trade given the circumstances, but you protest too much Mr. McNamara--Bellinelli and Green themselves have histories of being crap players on crap teams. Thornton would have been a terrible fit for the Bulls, but that team has a major weakness at the 2 guard spot that will likely keep them out of the finals--Bogans and Brewer will be logging playoff minutes because they're the wink links on one hell of a chain, not because they have some magic "know how to play the game" playoff pixie dust. Someone like Tony Allen CONTRIBUTES despite a limited offensive skill set. Someone like Willie Green, by and large, leads to losses, not wins. The Hornets desperately needed a backup big and Landry is an underrated player and great fit. I'm happy to have him aboard. But I think you overstate your case in insisting that Thornton cannot be a contributor on a good team. To the contrary, I think that good teams figure out how to make use of players with unconventional skill sets. Thornton's rebounding and shotmaking have value. Despite your insistence that "the right way" is all about wins, I think it's almost an argument about aesthetics. The question for Thornton is whether his TS % will be high enough to justify the volume of shots. If so, his game will translate to wins, given the right role on the right team.
I'm so tired of the Marcus will never play on a contender BS. 1) The Hornets are not a contender, we are one and done, at best round 2, but after the OKC trade, seriously doubt it. 2) Marcus would have killed on this team given consistent minutes every night. We would not have only scored 8 points against the Rockets in the 4th. Kevin Martin would have gone off on Throton just like he did on Willie Green and JJ. Difference is Marcus would have matched him shot for shot. 3) I can't wait until Monty Williams is fired. 4) Hope we beat the Raptors tonight. 5) Carl Landry has been a major dissapointment so far. He is not a good defensive player. I know his offense game will improve, his defense likely will not. I'd honestly rather see Grey in the game. 6) If let D-West walk and sign Landry to a long term deal, I'm gonna go crazy.
i will agree the most puzzling part of the trade is that marcus was traded to get a big and because of his DEFENSE.... and landry has never been a DEFENSIVE player not at all.... but really aaron gray is not good and i think a good addition would be to hire an offensive minded assistant coach to better draw up plays on the o-end when we need buckets rather than saying here david or chris make a shot
Monty Williams fired? I would risk the farm on Monty with a 15 year extension rather than fire him, if those were the only two options. Gray over Landry?!??! I think I like Gray more than 98% of people, but if that's really how you feel about the two players, then I have to assume you've only seen Landry play 2 or 3 games ever. That guy is a talented ball player who we are damn lucky to have. He's proven that time and time again in this league. Gray is a slightly below average backup who may or may not one day develop into an above average backup.
...I am a MT5 fan and always will be (why did he have his # to 23, lame?). I have been watching him play for the Kings, and will continue to do so. But I don't know if him putting up 29 points with the Kings is the same as if he was with the Hornets still. The Kings play for nothing other than stats, I mean it's not like they even have a chance at the post season. Do they even run plays? Just like last year, he will shine with the Kings. No pressure, he can just go out there and play, doesn't matter if they lose or not. I wish the best to Marcus, whether he wants stats or wants to win. We needed and back up PF/C badly, we got it. Hopefully this will end up a win win situation; Marcus is happy with his play time, and the Hornets do well in the post season.
I fall on the other side of the fence on this one, but I understand the fears of those who truly believe that Marcus will be a special player in this league. I guess it is possible, and he does have some unique skill sets, but I have been watching and playing this game long enough to have seen several players like this, and they often head down the same path. I can confidently predict that he will continue to put up numbers on bad teams and struggle to crack rotations on contenders. Think of it this way. The Bulls have Bogans and Ronnie Brewer at SG and could have had Thornton if they wanted, but he wouldn't have played on that team either, and they knew that. Instead they are looking at adding Rasual Butler. I know fans get so frustrated because guys like Marcus are exciting, they can win a game by themself here and there, but his game does not translate into wins on a constant enough basis. Best analogy I can give is a Poker player who is completely reckless. Bluffing far too often, going all-in with marginal hands, showing no patience or control. Can that player win a tournament- yes, a small one from time to time. Could they win the World Series Main Event? No chance. Because you are in a field with the best in the world and your margin for error over time is so small. You have to play the game the right way for a month and a half to win the championship in the NBA. The illusion that the NBA convinces fans of is that the regular season matters. The reg. season doesn't mean squat. Veteran teams win the title year after year after year because they have a collection of veteran pieces that understand the game and can translate that knowledge to wins. You think the Lakers would trade D. Fisher for Thornton straight up today? Of course not, and it isn't only because Fisher is a PG- he doesn't create at all on that team. It is because Fisher understands how to play the game and that translates to wins over time. Derrick Fisher, Keith Bogans, Marco Belinelli, Willie Green, Ronnie Brewer, Aaron Afflalo, Tony Allen- none of these guys have 1/2 the raw talent of MT5, but ALL of these guys will be getting major minutes in the playoffs and none of these teams would trade their guy for MT5. It is not just the Hornets, if it makes you feel any better, which I doubt it will- but I had to try, right?
i disagree respectfully... these teams are contendors and have superstars already in place to do the scoring they need defenders who compliment their stars. not a fair comparison. lakers have no need for marcus first of all... bulls would be a bad situation for marcus since rose and boozer need the ball to do their thing. tony allen is an elite defender bad offensive player no comparison... and id take marcus over belly and green in a heartbeat and im sure most other teams would also. and afflalo is too good and has too much potential to give up for marcus (most underrated player in the league in my opinion...great defender and emerging offensive player) just not a fair comparison
im going to be a fan of Marcus where ever he go...he became my favorite player last year smh @ dell and monty...
Being a fan is hard. I'm a basketball fan first, New Orleans Hornets fan second, and Marcus Thornton fan third. It has worked well for me because I only got to know who Marcus is because he was with the Hornets. But following him this season with his DNPs and getting bashed even right here, a blog for Hornets fans, made me realize that I have made love for the kid. Pause Now I don't wanna go into numbers and whatnot because I fear that that would take away something from the beauty of the game. You see, I love basketball. The sweet swish or echoing clang. The screeches on the floor. The savvy passing. Big slams. Ankle breakers. Bank shots. Bounce passes. You get the drift. I focus on those things and not the numbers so I cannot say if the Landry trade is good for the Hornets in the long or short term. What the trade means to me is that someone I am a big fan of is no longer with the team that I am also a big fan of. Props to Steven for this post but I will not make any comment on whether the Hornets are better off with or without Thornton. But in keeping with the post's title, this is my final Marcus comment (on this site): Being a fan is hard. I'm a basketball fan first, New Orleans Hornets fan second, and Marcus Thornton fan 2-A, and a Kings fan (a bit).
I trust Dell and Monty, I really do, but as each game goes by, all I can think about is how big a mistake we just made. I heard all the arguments for Landry and how he is a more consistant player or a more solid addition to the offensive and defensive out put of the team, but I don't see it. Thornton was 40% of our bench scoring, Landry can't fill that hole. I KNOW that we would have won that Houston game the other night if thornton was there, the rockets don't een play defense! He would have lit them up! Yes Landry helps our front court and our bigs but honestly I really believe we are better with Thornton, I honestly do, and I don't know what to think about this trade anymore
Between being subjected to Jarrett Jack last night (Marco who?) and watching Marcus go off tonight and compliment the New Orleans fans in his postgame interview, I am fairly apathetic right now. This whole situation seems like it could have been averted without shipping MT5 (sorry MT23) out of town. 1) I still don't think we needed to give up Bayless for Jack. Considering most teams in the league wouldn't even take Jack on their team because of his craptastic contract, Toronto should have been giving us Jack + pick (2nd rd) + expirings for Peja. 2) Bayless could have fetched us Landry. I will always be a Hornets fan but I can't help being emotionally drained watching the Marcus situation unfold. I will always root and watch every game, but I'm finding it really hard watching my favorite Hornet get railroaded out of town. I am a born and raised New Orleanian. My loyalty to this city means a lot to me. Lil Buckets and Lil Dimes were true New Orleanians. They loved us for our loving them so much in return (no homo!). They saw the passion we brought to the team last year and rewarded us for it with their play on the court. I can't help but wonder if Marcus getting shipped out was a by product of JJ's crying about his playing time. There is just too much fishiness going on right now behind the scenes and I can't follow comprehend it or support it. I'm with Steven. This will be my last time bitching about Marcus getting shipped out of town. I'll bury it in the ground with that piece of my Hornets heart that will forever be missing now.