Trade in the Works for Hornets-Raptors

By:
Published: November 20, 2010

ESPN.com is reporting that a five-player trade between the Raptors and Hornets was almost completed friday night, and still may be in the works.

The players involved are Peja Stojakovic and Jerryd Bayless for Jarrett Jack, Marcus Banks and David Andersen.    My quick take:

I love what this says about Dell Demps.  He made a move to get Bayless, thinking he would provide a solid backup option at the point.  10 games later, Bayless has shown no ability to play that position, and Demps is willing to make a move to get a much superior backup at the point.  That’s unheard of.  GMs are always loathe to admit a mistake.  Demps apparently does not.

And make no mistake, Jarrett Jack is the best player in this trade.  Peja was a season or two ago, but he’s not now.   Bayless is terrible.  No shooting stroke, a mediocre ability to get to the rim, and no respect from the refs to draw fouls.  Marcus Banks is a salary throw in, and David Andersen is essentially Darius Songaila without the toughness (though he can hit on the pick and pop – and we know the Hornets bread and butter is that play, so he may even get some minutes.)

So if you look at the trade overall,  the Hornets are working to trade a part that doesn’t fit and a part that isn’t working, for one of the best backup point guards in the league and some salary fill in, which they can still turn around and move later if they want.

Problems with the Reported Trade:

The trade reported above can’t actually be the one being completed.  First, Bayless cannot be moved as part of a trade bundle.  That’s not a huge problem, since it could actually be two seperate trades with Andersen being moved for for Bayless.

Here’s the actual problem, though.  The rest of the trade: Peja for Banks and Jack?  That trade does not contain enough Raptor salary for it to work according to the trade rules.  The Raptors need to send back another 2.5 million.  There are players for the Raptors that could be included – but it would have to be someone like DeMar DeRozan or Ed Davis, and there is no way I can see the Raptors giving up one of them in this deal too.

Something’s not right.  We’ll see how it develops.

86 comments
Caz
Caz

You have not addressed the most important concern here: What happens to Peja heads? Will Marco heads be made instead? Should the Hornets wait til the trade deadline to manufacture new heads??? JK. Great trade. Demps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bower.

L_Reazy
L_Reazy

Who can disagree with adding Jarret Jack as our primary back-up at the PG position along with Marcus Bank as the 3rd string insurance. Jack is the same PG that Miami wanted to trade-for last month to start for them. He’d definitely help Marcus Thornton on defense and offense! Also, I watched David Andersen play with the Rockets last year, and he’d be a definite upgrade over Mbenga, Gray, and Pops. He can bang inside, get rebounds in a short amount of time, plays decent defense -obviously coming from the defensive-minded Houston Rockets-, and he can shoot like Jason Smith. David Andersen helped the Rockets stay competitive last year while filling-in for Yao Ming at times. He will be a very capable back-up Center. However…. ….Jerryd Bayless has a ‘TRT’ clause and can’t be traded until December 23rd, 2010. TRT means that since Bayless was recently traded-for he cannot be traded until a later date. I wonder if Toronto’s ‘Trade Exception’ has anything to do with this rule being nullified at this time so that the trade can be completed sooner than later? Does anyone know how Jerryd Bayless can be traded ‘right now’ with this rule in affect? L_Reazy

RobertM320
RobertM320

Reazy, The rule says he can't be packaged in a trade. He can be traded straight up. This will ultimately be two trades.

AgentZiko
AgentZiko

One last thing. What bugs me soooo much about this trade has to do with Hornet's comment. It sucks to know that the Hornets would give up so much just to get under the cap. It shows the direction of the organization. I feel like with the threat of losing CP3, the goal would be to build a team that would SERIOUSLY contend for a title NOW. Not 2 or 3 years from now. Sucks to know that getting UNDER the cap was that important. When will the sale of team finally go through? Can't wait for it to. I want to see someone come in ready to spend and build a serious contender before the Heat have a year of struggles under their belt and while the Lakers are having injury problems, not to see a team try to get under the cap.

RobertM320
RobertM320

But AgentZiko, you'll be singing a different tune if the new CBA includes a hard cap and teams like the Lakers, Heat, Celtics and Mavs have to endure some serious roster gutting. Demps has a JOB to do. And in order for him to KEEP his job in the long term, he has to make the right decisions for the franchise, not for Chris Paul. The franchise will survive whether or not CP3 remains. Just like the Cavaliers without LeBron. Just like the Jazz post-Stockton and Malone, etc, etc. We are supposed to be Hornets fans first; Chris Paul fans SECOND. Let's trust Dell to do the best job possible, and let the chips fall where they may. If Chris leaves, he leaves, and we move on. Better to be in a position to compete if Chris leaves than to be where Minnesota was post-Garnett.

AgentZiko
AgentZiko

Topher buddy, I HAVE read those journals. They make perfect sense and I agree with them. Been reading almost everything on hornets247. I completely understand the basis of this trade. I just feel that this same trade could have been done with better parts to it. I will put a journal up later on again and throw something out there to compare with. Kevin Martin would be a DREAM scenario. But there will be other teams with better offers that will go after him, and will offer more than what the Hornets can offer. I guess to me, when looking at it from another teams point of view, Peja (because he can still shoot the lights out) Thornton and some parts is MUCH more attractive than Banks, Anderson, and Thornton. Monty WONT give up Green. I guarantee you he wont. The guy is head over heals crazy about Willie because he's known him from so long and they share a close relationship. I know Demps knows what he's doing, and I am not trying to degrade the guys work. I know he sees a bigger picture to all this that none of us know about yet. Was more hoping to see the splash that could really elevate this team to compete with the likes of LA/Boston. I think those teams set a bar that everyone is trying to reach. And as for living in LA. I've been blessed to watch 2 amazing guards play in this town. Magic Johnson is arguably the best PG of all time and if he wasn't diagnosed with HIV, I think the history books would be much different in the title race of Magic vs. Jordan. I have watched Kobe Bryant play since he was 17. I see how special of a player he is and I know what he has done for this community, and for the titles he's brought and shows he's put on, I absolutely am crazy about him. But I've also watched CP3 play since college. Because of my respect for Magic, I wont say it yet, but CP3, I feel, will go down as the best PG to EVER play basketball. What he does on the court is absolutely astonishing to me. He and I are the same age, and I still remember hearing about him and Lebron James back in High School and how amazing they were going to be. And being a PG that was recruited quite a bit myself before going down with an ankle injury that ruined 2 years of my life, and took away all my quickness, I started paying attention to CP3 and what he was doing. He is a VERY special player, and I want nothing more than to see him bring New Orleans as many championships as possible because I see what he can do with what he has, and that just a few more pieces can really take his team over the top. The Lakers have NO ONE to guard CP. And if he gets 1 more person to get the ball to, he can take them down this season. I really think we're that close. I'm not just saying that. I was hoping that with Peja's deal, we could get that ONE more guy. So... Whats our next move guys? We need a SF and back up center. Someone mentioned Battier. Love that. What else? Oh, and 42. Clippers are just a sad, sad afterthought. Having them in LA has been miserable for the name. We've been trying to kick them down to Anaheim and San Diego for years. LoL.

TopherPrice
TopherPrice

Zilko, You mean like say Kevin Martin at 10.6? Plus we could take another player or two off their hands using one of our T.E. to help them clear that roster spot, because we can then cut Pops or Mbenga before they are guaranteed at the trade deadline and not have to pay them their full salary and still be at 15 players on the team. Oh and as I said, you change Green and Andersen and you are now at $11.98 you can take back if you are going after a SG like Martin. Hmmm, and that idea just came to me in 30 seconds. Ya think Demps might not be a bit better than you and I at coming up with options for those 3 player to get a $10 Million dollar player beings as he eat sleeps and breathes this stuff? I find it best not to question the guy who is 4 for 5 on making great trades in less than 6 months. The arena being filled has about 5% or less to do with who we sign during the season. Please try to break yourself of your LA mindset. You have been around front-runners and Laker fans too much. 42, myself, and a whole bunch of other people have explained ad-nauseum why the seats are empty this early this season. Yes it is a theory, but one developed by those who are actually from the market being spoken about down the noses of those from larger markets. If you take some time and read 42's journal on the attendance over the years, you will see that like for like (bad season leading into a good start and great season) the Hornets attendance is actually on pace to beat the magical year of 07-08. You can bitch all you want if they are not selling selling out come January. I will be right there with you, but believe me both you and I will have no use for our bitching britches if the Hornets stay in the top 4 of the West. So until then, try and think outside of the conventional thinking you hear so much in LA. Louisiana is NOT conventional. Conventional wisdom doesn't tell you to keep coming back from centuries of natural and man-made disasters. Conventional wisdom says that the Saints were moving to San Antonio and if they stayed in NOLA would NEVER be in a Superbowl much less win one. In case you didn't hear, the owner was too cheap. Oh wait, a GM and new coach working together with their superstar leader of the team to create a TEAM is what mattered, not the dollars they spent and NAMES that weren't on the TEAM. Kinda sounds familiar...

AgentZiko
AgentZiko

Topher, I completely understand it from the salary aspect. But I see few teams willing to take on Banks, Anderson, and Thornton for someone around the 10 mil range. Even in a dump. At that point, they would also have to probably drop 2 guys on their roster to make the trade work. Something that wouldn't have been an Issue had it been Peja's contract. Robert, this is the difference between small market teams and big market teams. I live in LA but have been a long time Hornet fan, back to the Mourning/Johnson days. There is no such thing as roster gutting here. They print money dude. There is never a game that isn't sold out. Same goes for Miami, Boston, and Dallas. They have owners who want to win EVERY year, and do what it takes to get there EVERY year because the further they get in the playoffs, the more money the franchise pockets. There is no such thing as getting "under the cap" to them because of the benefits of selling out their stadiums, and getting further in the playoffs. Watching Hornet games, I see so many seats empty all the time. I really felt the team needed to do something to put more "buzz" into the air because even at 10-1, there are empty seats that would probably have filled had they gone for a bigger name. And a bigger name probably would have put the team in position to seriously contend. I don't think you get how long it takes for a team to rebuild after losing a once in a lifetime player like CP3. He is the difference between the Hornets getting their first NBA Championship, and not being able to contend for one for another decade.

42
42

Clippers are in LA. LA supports winning, not sports.

TopherPrice
TopherPrice

You are over-valuing Peja's expiring. A major need was a backup point who is consistent in his production, and not going to be turnover prone. You fixed that problem in this trade. You still have 6million back in expiring contracts and we are now below the TAX, not cap, thus allows us to make further moves that INCREASE our total salary commitment for this season. So NOW we can package Banks, Andersen, and Marcus for someone worth around 8 million. It Banks, Green, and Marcus for someone worth 10.5ish. The team would still be under the Tax or only slightly over and you have your big assest AND a real high quality backup PG for the future.

TopherPrice
TopherPrice

Now that I had a chance to look at the salaries, if we packaged Banks, Andersen, and Marcus we can take back $10 million in salary due to the 125% rule vs. the $8 million combined in their salary.

andy
andy

while I agree, $11 million dollars is alot of money, bayless wasn't doing much, and from Stein's twitter wasn't fitting in well with the team chemistry wise. I just would have hopes to get someone other than Banks, or something that solves our logjam at the 2.

andy
andy

we have the top PG in the league, and now one of the top backups in the league. Not to mention this could even be just a CP3 play. Chris is going to have a huge smile on his face today.

Hornet
Hornet

"That Hornets trade was brilliant. Saved them serious cash ($11m including tax) + Jack will really help them as a 3rd guard. Kudos to Demps." - Bill Simmons' twitter. Well that's good to hear. I'll post my thoughts once I see the details ironed out with the cash.

andy
andy

sorry for the spam, but one last comment. Jarret Jack and CP3 are very good friends from when they played in the ACC together. I went to wake and only saw Chris in passing a few times while I was there, as we had some classes in the same building but I was in grad school when he was a freshman. Happenned to run into him in Vegas for the rookie league, stopped a chatted for a bit, was just about to line up kicking his ass in some bowling and then Jarrett Jack comes by and says "yo CP, we gotta bounce", and ever since then Jack has been my least favorite player in the NBA.

42
42

I'd be totally with you if that happened to me. Next time I talk to Chris, I'll leave the conversation early and say I have to bounce. No worries.

JCS
JCS

Forgive and forget andy.

AgentZiko
AgentZiko

LoL. This was a priceless comment Andy. If I was about to Bowl with CP3 and Jack interrupted it, I'd be pissed too. LoLoLoLoL.

TopherPrice
TopherPrice

So no cuts needed as the bayless trade for T.E. is not a wait type of thing. I am happy with this trade for the Hornets. Backup PG is solved for the next 2-3 years barring injury. If CP3 goes down or Monty wants to rest him a game in a back to back, we have a nice PG who can play starter minutes. This puts Marcus back in a uni most likely. Gray or Mbemga is 1 suit, Banks is another, and Pops, Smith, Marcus, or Andersen is the other. I say Andersen just because of the time it will take for him to integrate into the system. So hopefully Marcus can use that time to prove he is worth staying in the Uni.

andy
andy

errrr, I forgot about green, we still have a logjam at the 2, and packaging peja with MT5 was our main trade bait. Marcus is in the last year of his small contract so won't be able to get nearly equal back in talent in return, and if he can't find his way on the court, he won't resign and we'd be letting him walk for nothing in return. He gives us great depth right now, but why not throw him and pops/mbenga in and try to get kleiza and weems or davis?

BeesGivingEffort
BeesGivingEffort

I think people are missing a portion of the bigger picture too. God forbid it, but what happens if CP3 misses 5-15 games due to injury at some point during the year? This whole operation would pretty much go to hell right now to be honest. Bayless or Green can NOT run a team for 35-40 minutes a night. You know who could at least help us tread water though in the meantime should the disastrous happen? Jarrett Jack.

Michael McNamara
Michael McNamara

One of my HUGE pro's- nice work. CP3 is gonna bang his hip or twist an ankle and miss 3-5 games this year most likely. Could mean the difference in a division title if we go 3-1 in those games as opposed to 1-3

JCS
JCS

@Steven Not having a Emeka vs. not having CP is the lesser of two evils. So in the case CP is in on the DL we need a back up PG more so than we need a back up center.

HiMyNameisSteven
HiMyNameisSteven

@michael- we have marcus thorton though lol... i feel like i can joke about it now since its obvious its never gunna happen. You trade our best trade chip and probably one of our other best chips to get... wait for it... another guard. We already dont have enough time to get good players like thorton out there and we live with trading our best pieces to get another guard rather than bettering our forward rotation. I dont like it at all. We could of easily gotten jason thompson easily with this trade package

RobertM320
RobertM320

Here's an interesting thought... what could the Raptors get in exchange for Bosh's trade exception AND Peja's expiring contract? That's a ton of available money.

andy
andy

No way to get or do we not want Linas (and his contract) over banks? Our backups would then be Jack/MT5/Linas/Smith/Anderson which looks SOLID.

NOBanks96
NOBanks96

I dont like this trade at all. Bayless is very talented but has jus underperformed we need to give him more time in the sysytem. Plus like Michael McNamara said, Anderson is another jason smith. I dont even wanna hear the Hornets brought up in the same discussion with toronto. I wud only like to see a trade wit Amir johnson & sonny weems

HiMyNameisSteven
HiMyNameisSteven

to be honest im not happy... u dont trade a few of your best pieces to get a player that will play 15 min a game... we could of easily gotten jason thompson with a similar deal, a posititon of much greater need.

jochbe
jochbe

You have been on the phone with Sacramento's GM, then?

42
42

Exactly. We don't know what deals ould actually be made, what Demps is looking for today, and what the larger plan is. We may still get these guys you covet. Or Carmelo.

AgentZiko
AgentZiko

Again, agree with Steven. Just not the right deal. Other positions were of concern.

TopherPrice
TopherPrice

In my many tweets with Larry Coon it has been made abundantly clear that trade exceptions must be used by themselves. As in 1 player traded for trade exception of equal or higher value. So yes we could trade Peja for the Bosh T.E. straight up. The problem with the Bayless must be traded at a later date is correct. I suspect that the trade will actually be the Hornets trade Peja for the three guys, then trade Bayless for part of the Bosh exception. This is the only way the salaries can match in any number of trades. This means that if the hornets are going to take on 3 players and only lose one 14-1 = 13 +3 = someone has to get cut. I'm not going to speculate on who will get the ax in this scenario, but it's either Pops or Mbenga as they are the only non-guaranteed contracts left on the books. Maybe Pops to the D-league? Interesting times.

42
42

The Bayless trade restriction is that he can't be packaged for like 60 days. He can be traded straight up anytime.

JCS
JCS

You seem to know more inside information then Chris Broussard. If anyone the official bloggers for H247 should be you, Ryan, Joe, and Mac.

TopherPrice
TopherPrice

They could trade Peja for Jacks, Banks, and their full Bosh exception. Then trade Bayless for Andersen. I don't know if they would do that, as they are giving up the Bosh exception for nothing. This allows for no cutting of players on the Hornets though.

JCS
JCS

"I love what this says about Dell Demps. He made a move to get Bayless, thinking he would provide a solid backup option at the point. 10 games later, Bayless has shown no ability to play that position, and Demps is willing to make a move to get a much superior backup at the point. That’s unheard of. GMs are always loathe to admit a mistake. Demps apparently does not." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No ability? Jeez man. That's harsh. I think Bayless has underperformed too, but I don't want to write him off just yet. U of A guards are some of the best in the league [Google it] so with or without us I think he can live up to his fellow alumni*, eventually. As for Jarrett Jack, I think he'd fit in right away. The rest of the guys are scrubs and I don't give two shakes about 'em. Nonetheless, this trade shows Demps is taking advantage of a chance to dump $tojakovic for a decent return. Hopefully, this move plus the eventual outing of Aaron Gray will take us over the hump.

jochbe
jochbe

U of A guards like Mustafa Shakur and Jason Gardner? They are both tearing up the league! I agree with your general point that Bayless has potential and shouldn't be written off yet, but the whole Arizona pedigree buisness is goofy. Aside from the fact that there are clear counterexamples, Bayless was at Arizona for one year, and that year was filled with turmoil (that was the real beginning of the end for Lute Olson). By the way, Georgia Tech has something of a point guard tradition as well...

JCS
JCS

"U of A guards like Mustafa Shakur and Jason Gardner?" More like Jason Terry 6th man of the year. Gilbert Arenas a 3 time All-Star. Mike Bibby All-Rookie first team. Andre Iguodala All-Rookie first team, All-Star, and Gold Medal winner. And Steve Kerr, 2 time All-Star, 5 time NBA Champion. There's a gang of other players who racked up awards, but I digress. I'm not sure of what you think of U of A, Lute, or the PAC-10, but not for nothing it's my favorite school out west. As for Georgia Tech, not so much. I've got friends and family who went to ACC schools but it wasn't there. Regardless, Chris Bosh is my favorite big man. We'll just have to see about your boy, JJ. By the way UNC >>>>>>>>>> GTECH

42
42

You clearly think too much of Gray and his $1m per year. Try some perspective and your understanding of the game will extend beyond googling who went to which school.

RobertM320
RobertM320

Is it possible that Demps has a better idea of what the owners/league is looking for in the next CBA? If he's preparing for a hard cap, its going to be really difficult to make moves when a lot of teams will be dumping salary. Maybe it'll be easier to move or ditch pieces/parts going forward to get the player he wants, rather than trying to move one big piece (Peja).

ur_gmas_daughter
ur_gmas_daughter

I trust Demps and every trade he's made thus far has made him look like a common thief for the value he got off some of the trades but I'm very confused. Why wouldn't Dell make a trade of Peja/MT5 closer to the All Star Break when teams like 76ers, Raptors, Rockets, will be desperate to blow up their teams. Won't we receive greater value during that timeframe? Is PG where we need an upgrade? I thought we need a backup big and Ryan Anderson is that much better than Pops/Mbenga. I think a Peja/MT5 is worth a big name if a team is desperate to dump talent and start over (i.e see Gaol, Pau).

AgentZiko
AgentZiko

I completely agree. This is what I was trying to say earlier.

Basketball Bloke
Basketball Bloke

This trade puzzles me, like all of Demp's trades have done so far. But I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Belinelli, Smith, and Green were not even playing for really bad teams. Hornets bring them in and sudennly they're key contributors. Jack is a good player, and I think Anderson will surprise. He's tougher than people give him credit for. http://www.basketballbloke.com/2010/11/hornets-and-raptors-trade-report/

Schmide234
Schmide234

As far as im concerned this trade is a great one for the hornets. drop two usless pieces in peja and bayless and pick up one piece that could mean a lot to us in jack. Jack has the ability to come into the game and not only maintain a lead but to expand on it. We would also be able to get back in games with a superior bench. Also this sures up the whole situation where if CP were to sprain something a little and be out for 3 games or so, we wouldnt have this monstrous drop off like we would with bayless. This is a strong trade and i like it. honesty im a little worried about Jack's personality tho from what a few others have said. I trust monty and demps to get the right guys tho

Michael McNamara
Michael McNamara

Looks like we got the main topic for our podcast tomorrow night Ryan. On the flight back from New Orleans, I made a full pros and cons list and the pors won out 9-6. Biggest con I haven't seen being talked about is that at best David Anderson is a Jason Smith clone. Good pick and pop guy who hustles and can be active but lacks lateral quickness and the ability to defend quality post players. FOuls too much. The two won't work well together. I would actually like to see Anderson get a majority of his minutes with Okafor. Biggest pro I don't see here is the nearly 12 million dollars saved (5 mil initial savings, 5 mil tax check, 2 mil reduction of lux tax payment). That might allow the Hornets to use an exemption in February to get another piece and/or do something with the flexibility plus Banks' expiring. As for how this trade will work as reported- it will be a fairly complex swapping of TE and loopholes, but from what I have heard they can get this done without adding any additional pieces. Haggling over the cash Hornets will include. Hornets likely offered 1-1.5 mil and Raps want closer to 3.

MaxALM
MaxALM

"David Andersen is essentially Darius Songaila without the toughness (though he can hit on the pick and pop" I never regarded Songaila as being tough--quite the opposite in fact. I hope you meant "Songaila WITH toughness" Anyway, I really don't want ANOTHER big man who can play the pick and pop. Seriously, we already have enough of those. I thought we were trying to get a backup big man who can play tough and rebound. I don't understand this at all.

AgentZiko
AgentZiko

Thats what I thought too Max. I thought we needed another bruiser.

Zwie
Zwie

this is completely off topic. but MAxALM,.... your profile picture.... do you know where that picture comes from???

rm
rm

We have a backup big who can play tough and rebound. Pops. The problem is that currently he seems to be playing tough and stupid. As I have said on this forum, Pops is rated a much better Big than Anderson in Europe and ok Anderson has done ok this season but he has not got the dynamic game Pops has got.

Adzs-London bee
Adzs-London bee

Seconded....and not because of nationality either as rm said in europe pops is far the higher rated of the two, and he may not be ''big'' for his position in nba terms, but neither is dejuan blair, and he has much the same attirbutes, plus 3 inches on aformentioned blair.....