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Out of Sight, out of their Minds

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Published: October 6, 2010

The NBA GM Survey just came out.  It’s a pretty extensive questionnaire that asks NBA GMs to rank all sorts of things, including likely MVP, best player at each position, fastest player with the ball, etc, etc.

One thing is very apparent from the survey, however.  Chris Paul’s injury-marred season and rumor-marred off-season has harmed how he is regarded in the NBA.  He slipped in many categories that he dominated last year.  In particular, half of the GMs in the league rank Deron Williams as the best point guard in the league now.

Oh yeah?! Well half you guys have losing teams.  So clearly you should shut up!

Am I right or am I right, people?  No?

Ahem.  Anyways, here’s a link to the survey if you want to see the whole thing. If you only care about categories where the Hornets were recognized, here they are:

Best Point Guard in the NBA
CP3 fell to second, with 37% of the vote.  Deron Williams had 50%.  (The year before, Paul got it with 78% of the vote)

Player most likely to have a breakout season?
Marcus Thornton received a vote. (Collison was tied for 4th)

Which player forces opposing coaches to make the most adjustments?
CP3 received a vote.

Which player best defends the passing lanes in the NBA?
CP3 and Trevor Ariza tied for 3rd with 10% of the vote.(CP3 won it last year with 25% of the vote) No passing allowed!

Which player is the fastest with the ball?
CP3 comes in second behind Rose with 17.9% of the vote.(CP3 won it last year with 43% of the vote)

Which player is the best passer?
CP3 came in second behind Nash with 14.3% of the vote.

Which player is the most dangerous in the open floor?
CP3 came in second behind LeBron with 10.7% of the vote.

Which player is the best leader?
CP3 tied Kobe Bryant for 3rd with 14.3% of the vote.

Which Player has the best Basketball IQ?

CP3 received a vote.

Oh, and since I can’t let it go, I do have one more thing to point out about Deron Williams being selected as the best PG.  He doesn’t show up as great in ANY other category.  Not even the Point Guard-related ones.  He’s not on the best leader list.  He’s not considered by anyone as the fastest with the ball or the most dangerous in the open floor.  He’s not listed by anyone as the best perimeter defender or passing lanes defender.  He’s not even on the best passer list.  He’s on none of them.  CP3 got votes in 7 categories.

So really, Deron Williams?

93 Comments

  1. 42

    October 6, 2010 at 11:16 am

    Being the kind of person I am, I have to ask: Are the GM’s really the best authorities on the subject? Would a similar poll of the coaches be better?

    As far as Chris’ rankings slip in terms according to the perception of informed observers, if not experts, I do not care. These are the people who believe that Chris and Carmelo are Knicks members, with Carmelo also being a Net.

    And let’s see how the Best-Point-Guard-According-to-GM’s fares without Boozer, Brewer (what a team namewise, eh?) and Korver. All ‘ers, too. Weird. Williamser would be weirder. Anyway, let’s see how they rank his talent in isolation when it’s really isolated.

    I hate bad analysis. Hate.

    • Chase

      October 7, 2010 at 10:31 am

      Brewer has been gone for a long time, Boozer was injured constantly and is being replace by Al Jefferson. Korver is the biggest loss, but if you think that is going to make DWill go from a 20-10 guy to a 15-7 guy, your a moron

      • 42

        October 7, 2010 at 1:37 pm

        I do think losing some good guys on offense will affect his assist numbers, yes.

        Easy with the moron talk, we just met. You’ll need to read more of me to fully establish how moronic I really am.

        Let me add: In 2008-2009 he played 36.8 minutes per game compared to 36.9 last year. Let’s call that the same. His assists per game went down from a nice 10.7 to a nice 10.5 over that time, and his points per game went from 19.4 to 18.7.

        I’ll give you that’s a 20-10 type of game and won’t quibble about the noise.

        I think you’ll agree the Hornets were a worse team and Chris managed 38.5 and 38.0 minutes per game in those years, respectively. His assists per game went from 11.0 to 10.7 and his scoring went from 22.8 to 18.7.

        Both guards had less production per game last season compared to the one before. Chris’ numbers here, the ones I chose, are better, and Chris played more per game which may explain some of the difference. Chris played less games, but played more in the games he was active in.

        We can dissect the numbers further, but a quick looks says Chris is better, but Deron is still a great point guard. Neither of these guys sucks.

        I would argue that one reason for Deron’s drop in production in roughly the same minutes would have to do with the departure of Brewer, and I think the departure of Boozer and Korver will have a similar effect. I would further argue that the loss of Tyson Chandler affected Chris’ production, which reinforces the point made just above. 2 oops a game compared to regular passes for a set shot, jumper, or layup, depending, is a nice bump in assist numbers.

      • QueenBee

        October 7, 2010 at 2:45 pm

        Deron has yet to avg 20 & 10. He hasn’t joined that club yet but I don’t think his stats will change dramatically. He may actually get to 20 this season with Boozer gone. Especially early in the season he may need to score more until Jefferson gets fully acclimated to Sloan’s system.

  2. Joe Gerrity

    October 6, 2010 at 11:59 am

    love the title.

  3. Kyle

    October 6, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    I agree that I would like to see a coach poll over this. I really don’t understand the basis of putting Williams at first. He’s a great point guard but he has yet to show that he’s the best in my opinion. I can understand guys like Nash getting a nod probably based more on their full body of work than their expectations for the coming year.

    Yeah without those “‘ers” Williams will really have a chance to show off just how good he is.

    I also like that Tim Duncan got third in PF and 2nd (out of a whopping 2) at C. I guess that just continues to show how few good centers there are.

  4. Sportnlife

    October 6, 2010 at 1:04 pm

    Frankly, I don’t mind the vote at all. Last year when CP3 swept the category, we were all okay with the GMs. Now we question their intelligence? So if they come back to Paul next year, they’re suddenly smart again?

    For my money, this is just more motivation for CP3. “How you like me now?”* basically, is what I expect from him, which is all to the good.

    __________
    *I was going to use Shaq’s “How my a$$ taste?” line, but let’s face it, CP3 may be thinking like a business man next year, and won’t want to alienate the GMs. (Wait, that’s a bad thing. Let’s go with “How my a$$ taste” instead.)

  5. QueenBee

    October 6, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    Of course it’s out of sight out of mind. I know other players shouldn’t be penalized for Paul being out but you know it’s because of out of sight, out of mind. If Deron is the best point guard why doesn’t he get any votes for any of that other stuff that Ryan mentioned (passer, leader, IQ). Surely if you’re the best you’d get some of those votes right? Which leads me to believe they’re selecting him solely based on Paul being out. He didn’t even get any votes for which players would force coaches to make adjustments. Like Kyle said, I would also like to see a coach’s poll. This is the very first time they’ve selected Williams best pg.

    • Chris

      October 7, 2010 at 11:33 am

      Bottom Line is that Deron beats CP3 almost everytime they play. If Deron and CP3 are the best two PG’s in the league and one dominates the other, seems pretty obvious who the best PG is.

      And to Ryan, I don’t think the Hornets made the playoffs last year, did they? I guess they are one of the losing teams who’s GM probably voted Deron over CP3.

      • QueenBee

        October 7, 2010 at 3:08 pm

        I’d rather have the point guard that dominates just about all other point guards rather than the one that has people trying to call him the best because of that 1 that he beats. But hey, we’re all happy with who we have as our floor generals right? I know I am. But for some reason I don’t really get the sense of happiness with the Jazz/Deron fans that are running to this thread. Hey, the GM’s have spoken. Nothing else really needs to be said. Go enjoy your season.

  6. QueenBee

    October 6, 2010 at 2:21 pm

    CP3 and Ariza will be stealing up some balls this season. Can’t wait to see that.

    • Chris

      October 7, 2010 at 11:34 am

      Probably eachothers balls, that is gross!

  7. QueenBee

    October 6, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    How the heck did Rajon Rondo and Kendrick Perkins be mentioned as doing the most with the least? Are you kidding me? LOL! So Allen, KG and Pierce are least now? Get out of here. LOL!

    • 42

      October 6, 2010 at 2:33 pm

      Sick ’em, Queen! Tear ’em up!

      It’s amazing how stupid groups of people are even when the individuals in them are smart people. Stupefying, actually.

  8. MC Welk

    October 6, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    Jazz AND Hornets fans should love this. It’s like a 5-set tennis match with no tiebreaker.

  9. Jefferson

    October 6, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    So let me get this straight – the Hornets go 37-45 last season (a losing record, at least where I’m from). Are you implying, then, that the Hornets’ GM shouldn’t have been allowed to vote in the poll? Chris Paul is an amazing athlete, for sure – quick, smart, great vision. Head to head with Deron….um, what’s CP3’s record? D-Will:11 – CP3:3. Advantage D-Will.

    Hope CP3 gets his wheels back so next year there will be no injury excuse for you to blame for D-Will’s dominance of CP3. Maybe then, in your opinion, the Hornets’ vote will actually count in the GM poll.

  10. JCS

    October 6, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    On the brighter side, CP3 is ranked number 2 for 2K11 Fantasy projections. He lost the 1 spot to Kevin Durant, but topped Deron by six spots. To me, that ranking seems more accurate, given their current rosters.

    • Chase

      October 7, 2010 at 10:28 am

      CP3 is a 95, DWill a 92. That’s 3 points, not 6

      • JCS

        October 7, 2010 at 1:52 pm

        ESPN 2K11 Projections:

        1. Durantuala

        2. CP3

        3. King James

        4. Diggler

        5. Kobme

        6. Flash

        7. Granger

        8. D Will

    • Chris

      October 7, 2010 at 11:38 am

      Yes, let’s use video games for justifcation now. Justification is like masterbation, you only screw yourself.

      Don’t worry no one cares if CP3 tears it up on NBA 2K11, because Deron dominates him in real life.

      • JCS

        October 7, 2010 at 1:48 pm

        Fail. I wasn’t referring to the video game. So you know what you can do to yourself?

  11. QueenBee

    October 6, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    JCS-CP3 is always ranked higher than Deron in fantasy projections. 2K and otherwise.

    • JCS

      October 6, 2010 at 8:45 pm

      Just trying to be optimistic in a not so optimistic thread.

  12. QueenBee

    October 6, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    CP and Nash on NBA All-Hands Team.

    http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/fran_blinebury/10/05/all.hands/index.html

    Where is the so called newly appointed best point guard on this list?

    • Andy

      October 7, 2010 at 11:55 am

      He is working his ass off in the gym, behind the scenes. I’m a long time fan of Chris Paul but he is become washed up recently. Once he stops trying to be bigger then the team he might be the best point guard again.

      • QueenBee

        October 7, 2010 at 2:49 pm

        LOL! Now that’s funny.

      • QueenBee

        October 7, 2010 at 2:50 pm

        Jazz fans should be happy but for some reason they’re seeming more hostile than usual. LOL!

  13. QueenBee

    October 6, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    I don’t question their intelligence but I am wondering how do you vote a guy the best but don’t give him votes in some of those other categories that would contribute to him being the best? That leads me to believe its an out of sight out of mind scenerio. Usually when they vote a player in as best, that player has votes in other categories as well.

    • 42

      October 6, 2010 at 5:41 pm

      As I said, it’s not the group members that are stupid, it’s the group as a whole. In polls like that, there are psychological factors for some people to put down things they don’t really think. No individual response or answer is suspect in itself, but you can see it when you look across answers in that they don’t make sense.

      In extreme cases, a group can select an option that no member would choose in isolation.

      It’s crazy. Stupid isn’t the right word; you are right.

      In this case I attribute the ranking to groupthink and recency. Chris was hurt and was far from the most productive point guard last season, but taking the bodies of work and looking forward . . . I don’t see how Deron can be considered superior at a 3:2 rate.

    • Noneyabiz

      October 8, 2010 at 8:11 am

      Being the best OVERALL PG doesn’t require you to be the best at one particular thing. Dwill is the best OVERALL PG in the league, not necisarily the best perimeriter defender or passer. Dwill has been patient and biding his time and now the whole league will see why the Jazz chose him over CP3. CP3 is washed up and made of glass. 8>3

  14. QueenBee

    October 6, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    If that’s the case they just should’ve voted Williams healthiest point guard. LOL. Because that’s what it basically boiled down to.

    • Chris

      October 7, 2010 at 11:42 am

      EXCUSES, EXCUSES. What will you say about him, when he leaves town for NY.

      Why do you think the Jazz drafted DWill instead of CP3. Longevity and Talent. They didn’t want a player who only played in 3/4 of his games. THat is why they let Boozer walk, and now he is the Bull problem, LOL.

      • QueenBee

        October 7, 2010 at 2:56 pm

        Excuses? There are no excuses. What will we say about him when he leaves town for NY? Absolutely nothing. Will going to NY change the player Chris Paul is? Will he all of a sudden stop being one of the best little men to play the game just because he’ll be on another team? I don’t think so. Matter of factly he may even be better. What? You think we’re all of a sudden going to say Deron is better because Paul is on another team? LOL!! And it’s not like Paul has played 45 games each season he’s been in the league ok? As of right now, thanks to the 09-10 season, Deron has only played about 45 games more than Paul. Before the 09-10 season Paul averaged 75 games a season. Don’t act like he’s out half the season each and every year. And you guys had better stop talking so much about injuries. You wouldn’t want Karma to come back and bite your arses hard now would you?

      • QueenBee

        October 7, 2010 at 3:15 pm

        Also, can you imagine Paul’s numbers in a fast tempo’d system? Oh my goodness. Along with Amare AND Carmelo? What he’s doing at a snail pace is amazing so I can just imagine him on a fast tempo team.

  15. QueenBee

    October 6, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    • JCS

      October 6, 2010 at 8:50 pm

      Sportsnation is hosted by a clown in over sized suit jacket with skinny jeans, and a dizzy blonde in a skirt. Those polls are as meaningless as this GM survey.

      • HiMyNameisSteven

        October 7, 2010 at 2:07 am

        michelle is awesome dont diss her the guy u can

  16. Buzz

    October 6, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    Every GM would have felt Clevelands pain when LBJ left; and when CP3 asked to be traded his stock would have dropped in the eyes of every GM. Thats the reason why he didn’t get votes, coz CP asked for a trade.

    • Chris

      October 7, 2010 at 11:43 am

      No, the reason he didn’t get the votes is because Deron dominates him head to head and Deron’s team is better.

      • QueenBee

        October 7, 2010 at 1:57 pm

        Well supposedly Deron has been doing that since they entered the league so why is he just now being voted #1? Because Paul was injured. Why hasn’t that ‘domination’ gotten Deron more MVP votes or All-NBA First team votes?

      • Ryan Schwan

        October 7, 2010 at 1:59 pm

        Then why did the GMs vote CP3 the best PG for two previous seasons? Try the injury. That’s the only reason that makes any logical sense.

  17. Jefferson

    October 6, 2010 at 5:49 pm

    I’m wondering if my prior comment somehow violated your comment guidelines? I thought it was an open forum and acceptable to disagree? I’d love to have some contrary viewpoints on saltcityhoops.com.

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 7, 2010 at 1:09 pm

      nope, you just have to get one approved comment in order to comment freely. It’s how we filter spam.

  18. QueenBee

    October 6, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Yeah, his stock would have dropped in many GM’s eyes but it sure as heck didn’t stop GM’s from ringing the Hornets phone off the hook trying to get him now did it? LMAO.

    • Buzz

      October 6, 2010 at 9:41 pm

      exactly right!!

  19. Jonny

    October 6, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    I thought this was funny “Well half you guys have losing teams. So clearly you should shut up!”
    So I guess New Orleans should “shut up!” too right? right? 😉

  20. BillyHo

    October 6, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    maybe that just shows how all-round deron williams is…
    he has no weaknesses and is strong across the board…

    • QueenBee

      October 7, 2010 at 1:58 pm

      Turnovers.

    • Buzz

      October 7, 2010 at 3:39 pm

      I don’t think anyone is saying that Deron isn’t strong in many areas, he is a great point guard. But if Deron is strong in many areas then CP3 is stronger in these areas based on the votes he got with the survey. Surely that makes him the better player in the eyes of the GMs. It just seems weird…..

  21. James Grayson

    October 6, 2010 at 11:17 pm

    Long-Term Memory Lose: A Pre-requisite of every NBA General manager.

  22. jazzLand

    October 6, 2010 at 11:43 pm

    I don’t know what category you guys talking about. The only reason Chris Paul became the Darling of nba was because of Katrina. He is flushy but fragile as hell.
    Williams has almost as many assist as fragile Chris Paul (injury prone)
    Williams is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy much better shooter than Chrisyyyy your boy
    Williams is way better parameter defender. Does Chrisyyyy ever dare to guard Kobe? in his dreams!!!! right

    As for that idiot that said that with boozer and Korver out, what will Williams do?
    The analysis of so called fun and experts really doesn’t make sense. Whoever play with Chrissyyy, they perform because of Chrissyyy. On the other hand, who ever plays with Williams, do will because they are good…… flauddddddddd.

    Another point of leadership and talent.. do you Hornet fun remember how Denver kicked your guys butt. beat you guys by 50 or so points… shameful.
    Billup owned your chrissy.
    Look what happened when Willaims faced the same adversity. With two starters gone, he kicked not only Billup’s ass but the whole team.

    Good luck with Chrissy for the two more years of renting where he will be hurt half of the time while Deron Williams will take us closer, closer to the ultimate goal………… who is better Hornets!!!

    • JCS

      October 7, 2010 at 10:34 am

      Riddle me this jazzLand: if Deron is so much better than Chris, then how come he’s always ranked lower in efficiency stats?

      • JazzMan

        October 7, 2010 at 10:50 am

        Easy. Because NO doesn’t run an offense, and just lets him dribble the ball around and doesn’t involve anyone else in the offense.

      • Joe Gerrity

        October 7, 2010 at 1:12 pm

        JCS said efficiency stats, not general stats. Your response really doesn’t mean much.

    • QueenBee

      October 7, 2010 at 2:32 pm

      And look how childish you are. Chrissy? LOL! Come on. You can do better than that. Thats how you can tell when a fan is mad. They try to change another players name. LOL. No one is here calling Deron “Deronisha” or “Deronika”. We don’t even call him what some others call him “Duh-Ron”. Remember when Team USA visited the Oprah show after the 2008 Olympics? Oprah was naming the players and she called Deron “Duh-Ron”. LOL. Deron looked pissed.

      Oh and Dahntay Jones was a great defender on Paul. Even played a bit dirty in that series but Chauncey and Rasual Butler were paired up. Pay attention. Just because Chauncey and Paul are point guards doesn’t mean they guarded each other.

    • Buzz

      October 7, 2010 at 3:59 pm

      Williams is so not a better perimeter defender, thats just fantasy.

      and the ‘Does Chrisssyyyyyyyy ever dare to guard Kobe?’ argument makes no sense, why would he? he gives up 6 inches and about 30pounds to him. I’m not sure that means CP’s not as good a defender. It makes more sense for deron to guard kobe coz he is closer to his size. Rajon Rondo was on the all defensive team last year, but you’re not going to see him guard LeBron.

      Whats more CP was all defensive the year before, i’m not sure if dero can say that.

      I can’t wait til we smack you guys this year, its going to be so sweet.

      OMG I feel dirty just responding to your post………

  23. JazzMan

    October 7, 2010 at 8:59 am

    Really? How can a guy play half a season and be considered the best in the NBA. Not to mention the fact CP3 gets owned everytime he plays against Deron. Deron’s team has made the playoff’s more, won more games. And I love the fact that you call out the GM’s for having losing records. Kinda like the Hornets last year??? Good luck in the Lottery this year.

    • 42

      October 7, 2010 at 9:36 am

      The same way Usain Bolt is the fastest in the world even when though he may be tied down do a chair, that’s how a guy can play half a season and still be the best.

      And a team being great doesn’t mean each member is great. The last guy on the Lakers’ bench isn’t as good as Paul or Williams for instance. Right?

      Anyone who wants to debate the point, let’s do so. Bringing up irrelevant facts do anything to advance things in any way.

      To be clear: My point is that the poll is bogus to begin with. Both guys are good, and no one thus far has come up with what it means to be ‘good’. KG was good before Boston, right? Even though he didn’t win? Polls produce things like #5 in front of Michigan before they lost to Appalachian state a few years ago, or the #2 in front of Ohio State this year in NCAA football. The NBA MVP is another such product and that thing is wholly inaccurate at least in terms of reflecting the name.

      • Keef

        October 7, 2010 at 9:52 am

        “The same way Usain Bolt is the fastest in the world even when though he may be tied down do a chair, that’s how a guy can play half a season and still be the best.”

        According to that reasoning, if I missed half of my classes in college, I would still be the best student and deserve an A and a scholarship.

      • JazzMan

        October 7, 2010 at 10:54 am

        Speaking of irrelevant facts. How about comparing college football rankings to the NBA. But hey, Wake Forest is better in baseball than Illinios so of course Chris Paul’s 45 games a year is better than Deron Williams. Doesn’t being able to stay healthy and play the whole season matter in determining who is better? Is Greg Oden a top 5 Center, by your logic he would be.

  24. Keef

    October 7, 2010 at 9:45 am

    Wins are the most important stat in any sport (even invididual awards go to players whose teams win – for example, MVP almost always goes to the best player on the winningest team), and CP3, for all his flair, has struggled in that most important category – especially against Deron Williams. Complain all you want; Paul doesn’t deserve to be regarded as the best point guard in the NBA.

  25. mike poland

    October 7, 2010 at 9:57 am

    Deron Williams any day!! dont talk bout records, stats, who won more games, tell me what GM from nets etc. know about deron or chris leadership?? but still Deron right now is better then CP. 1-deron 2chris/rondo 3nash

    • JCS

      October 7, 2010 at 2:00 pm

      Get real, poland. The only thing the GM for the Jersey Shore knows about is GTL. Coaches know the game and records, stats, and wins are all important.

  26. Matt

    October 7, 2010 at 10:45 am

    here is a thought…

    The GM survey is taken by the NBA of all of the GM’s in the league, who for the most part, have the most in depth knowledge of all of the players in the league. All of the talent scouts in the NBA report to their respective GM’s, and while some are much better than others (Minnesota’s for example) Those guys are the ones that know the most about the talent in the league.

    Now in regards to best point guard, Deron Williams and Chris Paul are two different type of players, but CP3’s continued flirtation with injury is what drops him on the GM list. True, in ’08 he took the hornets to the Western Conference Finals, but since then he has been continuously injured and his team has gotten worse in the two years since.

    In that same span, Deron has played at a consistent All Star level with comparable stats for a team that has been at the top tier of the loaded western conference. In the playoffs, with a Boozer playing with an injured rib cage, and without AK-47 or Okur, he went into Denver and put up HISTORIC numbers of 33 and 14 in a road playoff win. That hasn’t been done before, never! When his team needed him to step up to fill a void, he did just that.

    That is probably what the GM’s are looking at in this survey, Deron has never been out with a serious injury, and can elevate his game to a level that few players in this league can match when their team truly needs them to. So for this year’s survey, I am fine with Deron being voted above CP3, because he was better last season.

    What has CP3 done in the past two years that would justify him as the best point guard in the league? his team has gotten worse each year, either due to his lack of playing or loss of talent, but his team has gotten worse, and that is a fact.

  27. 42

    October 7, 2010 at 11:24 am

    Jazzman, if you continue to be purposefully obtuse, or if you just can’t help it, you will probably alienate some readers and your good points will fall on deaf ears, figuratively speaking.

    With me last paragraph I was referring to how bad such polls are at evaluating the talents of individuals and teams. I was talking about neither Chris, nor Deron.

    I do not think that Greg Oden is a great center because he’s injured, nor would I think he wasn’t great because he suffered a tweaked knee provided he was playing well before. If he was great and got injured, I’d still think he was great. In reality, however, he’s yet to develop, I think, and injuries are part of the reason, draft position aside.

    Usage plays a role in how much a player affects a team, agreed. However, is the question who made a bigger difference last year? If it is, Deron, hands down, but I don’t think that’s the question. I read the question as who is better at their job when they are doing it. In that case, history says it’s Chris.

    http://www.hornets247.com/blog/2009/12/09/fun-with-numbers-and-venn-diagrams/

    Here is a post Ryan did about point guards. It was from about 10 months ago, during last season but not very far in. It provides some data that you might find interesting. The pictures are not appearing (perhaps due to the recent site update), but the text makes it fairly clear what is being said.

  28. QueenBee

    October 7, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    LOL! Look at em. They have to come try to convince Hornets fans. LMAO. I should have known when I came here and saw this thread had 48 comments.

    • Jefferson

      October 7, 2010 at 1:39 pm

      So QueenBee, if Chris Paul is so superior to D-Will, tell me why he hasn’t elevated his game or improved his team? Why does he always seem to choke whenever he plays opposite of Deron Williams? If I posted on saltcityhoops.com that Chris Paul was a joke, I would hope that NO fans would attempt to defend their star. I’m sure that Joe is LIVID that he’s getting page views and comments.
      🙂

      • Ryan Schwan

        October 7, 2010 at 1:46 pm

        I’m very upset. Traffic is highly overrated. Oh, and my name isn’t Joe. 😉

      • 42

        October 7, 2010 at 1:48 pm

        I think if you took a hard look at the construction of this team, I think you’ll see that Chris, like Deron, has improved the play of the team. What he hasn’t done is improve the construction of the team.

        Chris has good games against the Jazz, just like Deron has had some good ones. It’s the rest of you guys that’s the problem, I think. You guys are a tough team and the Hornets haven’t played well against you. Kudos. I don’t think it reflects on point guard play. When we beat you in Utah last year (for the first time in a long time), Deron put up better numbers than Chris, yet we won (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201001040UTA.html). There’s more to it. Yeah?

        Have the Jazz been the better team. For the last 2 years, for sure. 2007-2008 . . . It’s arguable but I’ll take the Hornets. This year . . . It’ll be fun to find out.

      • QueenBee

        October 7, 2010 at 1:49 pm

        Chris Paul has elevated his game each and every season. Pay attention please. For one he has to be on the court to improve his team. 08-09 the Hornets had no business in the playoffs but Paul did his best to get them there and there they ran into a better, deeper, healthier team in the Nuggets. And well we all know what happened in 09-10 but to say Paul hasn’t elevated his game is crazy. And let me tell you why Chris Paul supposedly ‘chokes’ when they play the Jazz. First off, Jerry Sloan has been playing Paul like a superstar since he entered the league. Paul’s supporting cast can never get anything done against the Jazz. When Paul blows by Deron, AK or Boozer or someone would be right there waiting on Paul to kick out because they knew fully well Paul would get by Deron. Then when Paul kicks out, said Hornets player never knocks down shots. Deron has had a better team than Paul all the way from his Hall of Famer Coach to the bench. There isn’t a person in the world that would take West and Peja over Boozer and AK47. Or Byron Scott over Jerry Sloan. Even when Chris Paul has a good game or when Deron has been in foul trouble, the Jazz still end up winning by about 20 points. That’s a great system Sloan runs over there.

      • Jefferson

        October 7, 2010 at 1:50 pm

        My bad…just looked up to one or two comments and saw Joe’s name hyperlinked to hornets247.com.

        Great discussion, though, absent a few crazies…can’t wait for the season. Hope CP3 and D-Will can duel it out and stay healthy for years to come!

  29. QueenBee

    October 7, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    And then wait, did someone say Chris Paul became darling because of Katrina? LMAO. So Katrina made Chris Paul put up the numbers he did? Paul was voted ROY while playing in OKC because of Katrina? Wow. OK then. Who was the point guard for the Knicks when 9-1-1 happened? Did he put up historical numbers and became NBA ‘darling’? I don’t remember. Someone please refresh my memory because I really don’t remember. Deron is great but deep in the back of their minds they know why GM’s voted Deron #1. They know.

    And yeah, Deron is better than Paul. At turning the ball over.

    What I don’t understand is how can a player be better than one player but yet he’s never been a serious MVP candidate, has never made an All-NBA First team, has never made an All-Defense team, has never led the league in any stat at his position, I could go on but I’m trying to understand. Deron could NEVER have taken Paul’s 07-08 cast to 56 wins. NEVER.

    • 42

      October 7, 2010 at 1:51 pm

      Queen, don’t hurt ’em.

      And what are those things you are saying? Facts? Reason? I need to read about those . . . something about them just seem . . . funny . . .

      • QueenBee

        October 7, 2010 at 2:21 pm

        Read about em baby! Read about em. LOL!!

  30. QueenBee

    October 7, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    It’s also been no secret that Deron definitely gets up for Paul. He’s been spending most of his career in Paul’s shadow and trying to prove he was the right pick for the Jazz. He was the right pick for the Jazz and Chris Paul certainly was the right pick for the Hornets. I go to Jazz forums and I’ve seen threads questioning whether the Jazz should have drafted Paul. And I mean these threads are started by Jazz fans that love their team and love Deron. They’ve even questioned if Deron is a max contract player. I’ve never seen such questions on a Hornets forum.

  31. QueenBee

    October 7, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    All Jazz/Deron fans have only had 2 things to hold onto as to why Deron is better than Chris Paul. He’s bigger and he ‘owns’ Paul head to head. As if it’s only those two on the court when these teams meet. That’s the only 2 things they’ve been able to hold firmly to. For years it seems like they can’t enjoy the great play of their great point guard because they’re worrying about Paul and what he’s doing. Everytime Paul gets selected for something and Deron doesn’t here they go …. “well this will put a chip on Deron’s shoulder” or “this will fuel Deron’s fire”. Imagine if there were no chips to put on his shoulder. Would he even bother to play as hard as he can? Thank Chris Paul for being Deron’s motivator.

  32. QueenBee

    October 7, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    Anybody remember that article after Deron’s and CP’s rookie season where AK47 told Deron to not worry about playing against Paul and that it would be Hornets against Jazz and AK told Deron that his teammates will be there to help him? Anyone remember that? See? For Deron it’s always been about himself against CP3.

    And guess what guys? Derrick Rose is better than Paul too because he’s bigger and the Bulls have won the games.

  33. QueenBee

    October 7, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    I think Jazz/Deron fans only watch Chris Paul when he plays the Jazz. And they’ll say they watched that dismal playoffs against the Nuggets but ignore the series against the Mavs and Spurs. Get some league pass or something. And try watching how other positions on the court matchup against each other when these teams meet.

    Anyway, I’m raising my glass for both teams to have healthy, successful seasons. 😉

  34. 42

    October 7, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    Wow.

    • QueenBee

      October 7, 2010 at 3:17 pm

      I’m done with this 42. It was fun but it’s not us over here that needs convincing.

      Why are we just about the last team to play a preseason game? I’m ready to get this season underway. Taking too long man.

      • Jefferson

        October 7, 2010 at 3:23 pm

        Solid 27 posts QueenBee. Excited for the season to start. Let’s revisit this thread at the all-star break and again when the playoffs come around. 🙂

      • QueenBee

        October 7, 2010 at 3:31 pm

        Yeah I must be feeling kind of chatty today. Hahaha.

      • 42

        October 7, 2010 at 5:56 pm

        I’m not complaining at all. I love it.

        If Chris reads this, he’ll got get a QueenBee jersey; take that to the bank. Good job. Really.

  35. MC Welk

    October 7, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    Speaking of systems, Paul dominates the ball. The Jazz run a flex offense wherein several other players accumulate assists (generally the Jazz are at or near the top of the league in team assists). On defense Paul gambles more for steals. This is something Sloan frowns upon. Also the Jazz have had vacuums on the defensive glass so Williams’ rebounding totals are lower. As for shooting http://www.slcdunk.com/2010/9/15/1691396/myth-busting-the-nba-is-deron

    Back to my 5-set tennis match comment, let them play the games. This is what makes the NBA so much fun.

    • QueenBee

      October 7, 2010 at 3:46 pm

      Even when Tyson Chandler was a #1 offensive rebounder in the league and #2 overall rebounder, Chris Paul still averaged more rebounds. Paul isn’t really in there battling big guys for rebounds but he is quick enough to chase down a long ball. But there have been times when he has disappeared under the goal amongst the trees and here comes the smallest guy on the court with the rebound. That just about always gets an applause from the crowd. LOL.

      Also, Paul doesn’t gamble for steals to where he is hurting his team by being out of position or anything. He’s not letting a guy blow by him and then try to tap it from behind ala Rajon Rondo. And he also has a knack for being pesky as h*ll and just flat out taking the ball from an opponent. That reminds me of an article I read a while back about Paul’s steals….

      “And it’s the way he does what he does. His steals aren’t typically the result of “getting in passing lanes.” Those are gambling-steals, Allen Iverson steals. Paul actually takes the ball from dudes. “Gimme dat.” No point guard, other than maybe Rajon Rondo, pressures the ball, like CP3.”

      http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/vince_thomas/04/07/paul.20090407/

      And if Sloan frowns upon gambling steals how much does he frown on turnovers? It’s amazing considering the way Paul dominates the ball he doesn’t average 4 turns per game.

      As far as defense, about a season or two ago, I really haven’t been bothered to look up recent stats but about a season or two ago, it was shown (maybe at 82games.com, I’m not sure) that the Hornets defense is better with Paul on the floor and the Jazz defense better when Deron is on the bench. I didn’t say it though. The stats did. How much do you think Sloan frowned in that game when Devin Brown scored 30 and the Jazz were in position to score to possibly win the game and Deron threw the ball away right into Chris Paul’s thieving hands?

  36. QueenBee

    October 7, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Yeah, lots of times he just takes the balls…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4EgJHr1Gk

    But don’t fault Paul because he’s great at playing the passing lanes. Lots of times he can see an opposing teams play before it happens.

  37. jazzLand

    October 7, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    These stats such as steal, rebound that in your eyes make Chris Paul so dominant compared to Deron Williams are really over-rated. If Chris doens’t guard the player on the opposite team that he is supposed to but rather focusing on stealing the ball and as result, the other player scores easily. what is the value of that steal… “woooo I am better cus I steal more balls”…
    Don’t overlook the style of basketball both play; flex system and open “no system” Hornet’s system. Sloan frowns upon leaving your man and focusing on stealing…. He gets mad at Krilenko for that matter…..
    If you have a good seven-footer and a very good re bounder in your power-forward position, there is no need for Williams to try to rebound unless the ball comes to him…
    here we go… that is why Chris Paul has better stat than Deron. That that translate to more wins? questionable… to me more to loss than win.
    Based on just stat, declaring Chris Paul better than Deron Williams is wrong. Any nba fan can tell you that……………………………………
    Williams is better shooter, bigger, durable………..
    case closed………

    peace.

    • QueenBee

      October 7, 2010 at 4:23 pm

      Aww cry me a river and go write a letter to Yahoo. LOL!

      http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Ranking-the-point-guards-10-through-No-1?urn=nba-263267

      No one here cares what makes Sloan mad. Does turnovers make him mad? Why aren’t any of you answering that? Like I said, Paul doesn’t jeopardize the teams defense. Paul always has a better defensive rating than Deron but with Paul being out most of the season Deron finally had a better defensive rating than Paul. By like 2 points. Again, we here don’t need convincing. Sounds like you’re really trying to convince yourself though. Like I said once in this thread somewhere above, Deron is great for the Jazz and Paul is great for the Hornets. Paul has had to do more for his team than Deron. I think I can say for certain that Deron would never be able to carry Paul’s cast to 56 wins. This past season was the first in about 2 seasons that the Jazz finished with a better record than the Hornets. You’re not worth anymore of my time. Good day.

      • 42

        October 7, 2010 at 6:15 pm

        jazzLand,

        Here is a link to a post above

        http://www.hornets247.com/blog/2010/10/06/11683/#comment-185

        Which has some stats about scoring in assists for the past 2 years. Chris is higher in both. So calling him a better shooter, or a better passer, is shaky at best, but I think wrong is a better word. Yeah, it really seems to get to the pith of it, doesn’t it?

        Assertions just don’t hold up against data, my friend.

        And as has been said many times, including by Hornets fans in this thread: The Jazz have been better than the Hornets for 2 years. It’s due to the team, including the fantastic play of Williams.

        Oh, Jazz fans . . . you’re welcome.

  38. QueenBee

    October 7, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    I’ve talked enough on this subject though guys. It was fun but it’s really run it’s course with me at least. Go to your forum and celebrate your point guard being voted #1 by GM’s. I’m now going elsewhere to discuss our players rotations. Cheers.

  39. JJ455

    October 7, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    First one with a title wins

  40. James Grayson

    October 7, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    It seems Jazz fans are trying to convince themselves more than us, of who the better point guard is. They preach team play yet are arguing over an individual accolade, talk about hypocrisy.

  41. SaysWho

    October 7, 2010 at 11:17 pm

    Both are far and away the best point guards in the NBA, and taking regular season performance in a vacuum, Chris Paul has the edge. That’s pretty much undeniable.

    The one factor, and huge factor mind you, that makes this a debate, and springs Deron as the premiere point guard in the league was their performances against Denver. Both were guarded by similar players in Jones and Aflallo, and trapped constantly in the half court. Deron Williams was insanely aggressive in handling that pressure defense, making Paul look timid in comparison. Aggression I hadn’t seen from a point guard since Paul was destroying Jason Kidd a couple years back. Just as important, he shut down Billups on the other end of the floor, leaving him absolutely no day-light to shoot a jumper. One of the few point guards I’ve seen that got in his head. Doing all of this with a team down two starters.

    Chris Paul will have a bounce back season, he will regain his place on top. But, when the going gets tough in the playoffs, Deron Williams elevates his game like no other point guard, on both ends of the floor, an absolute beast. I will enjoy watching both of their careers and the debate is only going to get more heated!

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