Not here to burst any bubbles, but I asked Alex Laugan at BSotS about the claim that you can go over the cap to sign Gordon using Bird rights. He tweeted Larry Coon, who replied that once you start the summer below the cap, you can only use the "room" exception that year - all other exceptions go away. In addition, you must maintain the full amount of the RFA contract (13.7 mil) at all times from the time the offer sheet is received until it is matched.
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Figuring out the Hornets’ Salary Figure »
Eric Gordon Officially Signs the Suns’ Maximum Salary Offer Sheet
Eric Gordon will be paid a maximum salary, but by whom? It’s the Hornets’ choice.
ESPN’s Marc Stein has just reported that Eric Gordon has officially signed the Suns’ maximum salary offer sheet. Reports that the Suns and Gordon agreed to the terms emerged late on July 3rd.
Now, there are only two options: The Hornets can let the Suns sign Gordon and live with the reduced salary figure of ($38,849,996) as their return on the asset, or they can match the four year, $58m offer ($13,668,750 first year, $615,093 increases), yielding a cap figure of $52,045,143.
For the moment, the Hornets count only Gordon’s $9,577,960 cap hold in their salary, however, leaving $10,089,648 in cap space.
The Hornets have until the afternoon of July 14th to make the decision on whether or not to match the offer and keep him on the Hornets. If they do not act in this time, then Eric Gordon will become a member of the Suns. According to Stein, “they definitely will but early indications I get is they’ll make PHX wait full 3 days.” Doing so would be beneficial to the Hornets, as it allows the Hornets to make some moves to flesh out the roster with players commanding well-above minimum salary.
((Nota Bena: These salary figures are updated as of the Jarrett Jack trade. Any later move is not reflected.))
Folks who have dealt with unions or who have worked for unions know very well that the precise requirements of a CBA have to be strictly met. A player can't start the clock ticking just by emailing or faxing his offer sheet to his team. All this hooplah about taking the full 72 hours and figuring out exactly how much cap room a team must have at any particular point in time IMO justifies asking these questions. I'm pretty certain the Hornets, Suns, Gordon and his agent fully understand the deadline and how it works.
Suns get: Eric Gordon Bucks get: Marcin Gortat Kendall Marshall 1st Round Pick from Suns Hornets get: Brandon Jennings Larry Sanders Sounds about right to me... Move Rivers to SG... Jennings would be a perfect fit with this team!
I think our situation with Gordon is great. We definitely need to match the offer. Then, we need to talk with EJ. He can decide if he wants to stay with us or go elsewhere. We can get a good deal if he doesn't want to stay with us, but he likely will. I think that now he realizes that the Suns really didn't want him that much because they didn't work out a sign-and-trade. Our core is taking shape.
I also see a method to this... How about a trade that no one but me and AD will love...Gordon for DeMarcus Cousins, John Salmons and their next year #1? We amenesty Salmons at the first opportunity, and have DeMarcus at the pivot. Sacramento gets rid of a player they've had trouble with and a totally loathsome contract, they can use Thornton as a second unit scorer. Basically it is Cousins for Gordon and the future cap flexability for the pick. I'm no cap expert, obviously, but I think Sacramento has the cap room to absorbe the extra salary...if we have to we could throw in the CP trade exception to get us closer. Now that's a young core to die for, that will still struggle enough to get us two more lottery picks next year, just in time for Rashard and 'dem to come off the books and see what kind of fun we want to have with the cap room...or even just manage it with the hopes of extending our core in future years...
I know that this is unrelated, but I hope we give Jack (and maybe Kaman) a video tribute and a standing ovation at the hive.
Inquiring minds want to know the answer to 5 questions: Isn't the Suns team website the only "official" source of this report? Why hasn't ESPN officially reported the story that Marc Stein tweeted about? Why haven't the Hornets said anything to acknowledge the signed offer? Is the offer sheet only effective if it's actually delivered to the Hornets or is it enough for a team just to claim that an offer sheet has been signed? Does the 3 day period to match an offer sheet begin on the day that an NBA team reports on its website that an offer sheet has been signed, or does the 3 days begin to run upon delivery of the offer sheet to the team with which the player is contracted?
Dell shouldn't match. It's a little too much money for an injury prone player who is easily threatened by teammates. Signing a potential cancer to a max deal would be a mistake.
According to yahoo.com's latest post about the Hornets: "Although the Hornets have indicated in the past that they would match any offer for Gordon, Demps declined on Wednesday to confirm whether the team still intended to do so. 'No updates right now,' Demps said. 'No comments.''' Hmm. Still something fishy going on?
With the trade of JJ and by not matching the Gordon offer sheet does this allow us the cap space to sign both Javale McGee and OJ Mayo? Rivers - Mayo - Anderson - Davis - McGee Vasquez - Henry - Miller - Aminu - Smith
So, at this point, before we match, the Suns and Gordon can't tear up the offer and do a sign and trade?
While I'm disappointed in the lack of a s&t, I'm happy the Suns did not take the added risk in giving up key young players as well a whole bunch of cash into a future with Gordon. However, I don't think this is over just yet... My feeling on this is that the Hornets will make the Suns wait the full 72hrs, not because they want the Suns to "sweat it out" with a $13+ million cap hold, but because they are going to shop around for the remaining pieces they need (including a replacement for Gordon) to have a successful 2012-13 season. If the Hornets like the players they can agree to terms with, they will rescind the right to match the Suns offer to clear the cap space they need to complete the signings. My guess is the Suns FO feels the same way. Why else would they have given the offer sheet to Gordon?
Talked to Larry Coon. I asked if the Hornets can use Bird rights to sign Gordon provided we maintain his cap hold and we don't remounce him no matter if we go under the cap to whatever degree or gow much space we use before. He said we can in fact use his Bird rights to do this in this case. This is the case we are in. Compare this question and answer to the tweet and look for which is more open to innocent misinterpretation by either party.
Read the tweet. That's not the exact phrasing and is some interpretation. Coon also tweeted that you can tradr back to the offering team after a year. The CBA FAQ says the opposite. So, if the FAQ is wrong (it has been), then we are wrong. I'm 100% ok with that. All of our has been clearly stated to be based on it. Coon has been wrong in tweets before, and unclear. Also, read this and draw your conclusion: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q38 The FAQ says you lose Mid-Level, Bi-Annual, and trade exceptions. Note: we are maintaining Gordon's cap hold. If we sign over $6m in salary then sign Gordon, we are right. If something else happens, we don't know since it could be choice or the market driving the lack of signing.
So, I have a press release from the Suns from the around 5 p.m. our time that says they signed him to an offer sheet. I'm thinking this is sufficient. Do you agree?
Who said they didn't? We are helping people understand the process, nothing more. Would you care to help?
There is no possibility of a sign and trade with Phoenix now that Gordon has signed the offer sheet. We basically have three days to spend $10 million before signing his sheet or we lose that money under the cap. Look for this to be a busy 3 days.
I don't know why we didn't get more centers to try out... But we can sign one who played for another team... But I think there are three legitimate optionswho are free agents... Brendan Haywood Darko Milicic And the low risk high reward Greg Oden...
I wouldn't over react... Personally, I dont expect to be competing for the championship this season... At first had the same thoughts.. Who is gonna play C? I don't really want Smitty putting on weight because with his frame he would lose some of the athleticism that makes him effective... But then after I calmed down... I thought to myself how do we get a decent center.. Most of the guys in summer league aren't committed to either team... We have the playing time available to basically pick the center who we think sho wed the most promise and offer him a roster spot... It's a gamble.. Maybe he develops and he can be a rotation player after we get a more permanent C sometime this season or next off season, but worst case scenario we get someone to take the bruises and beatings we don't want to subject Anthony Davis to until he physically matures into the BEAST!!
First of all, there is no way they would accept that. Secondly, teams can not amnesty players that were not under contract or the same contract with a team. Salmon's can be amnesties by them, not by us.
What's official? Do you mean public? They've been reporting it going to happen. Happenings that are expected, sadly, are not as much news as sewing fear. Because it was expected. Do they have to? I don't think so. There's a process, and this is a civilized cartel working with a civilized Union, and both are highly litigious. These guys know when it's signed, they are not trying to bamboozle anyone . . . it'll come back around to them.
Looks to me like a S&T wasn't on the cards and now NO is assessing their options. My view is Gordon just wants to the security of being paid big money. I have said before a lot of how these NBA players assess the level of "respect" they get is based on their salary. This is why the Clippers are going to have fun next year, CP3 will at a MINIMUM require the same deal that Williams got from Brooklyn. I don't see him signing for anything less given what Griffin was just signed to as well. People need to realize that while the Heat big 3 all took pay cuts to make it happen. The Boston guys all signed reasonable deals in the day as well to keep their team together. The signing 2-3 guys to a MAX and then trying to form a big 3 model is flawed and leaves you with too many holes to patch. Look at the Knicks... They still won't get past Boston or the Heat. Nets? lawl.... unless they plan on playing 3 man ball good luck. What people fail to appreciate is that LBJ, Wade and Bosh all gave up millions each to play together and compete for rings, and that deserves respect no matter how "the decision" panned out.
I read the email myself and can verify that Coon did agree with Jason. Q and A's on Twitter are so difficult. Luckily, we have the man on speed dial!!
They very well may reject it, but we're taking a sg off their hands in salmons. So their logjam doesn't get affected, except they get a player who is actually good. Cousins is great, I know, but he's probably not looked at as a max talent yet. And he comes with risks, I'd say he's worth slightly less than EJ on the open-market. But I'd also rather have him on my team, so maybe I am not accurately diagnosing the market. Yeah, no amnesty for salmons, I guess. Makes it that more reasonable to demand something of value to make up for taking his absolutely horrid contract and the talent discrepancy (maybe only my mind) between EJ and Cousins. We won't really need need the money he's eating up until his deal is up in three years and we need to resign the core. I think Sacramento would consider a the most talented SG under 30 for the "potential" of cousins. But I could be wrong...It just feels like with Monty and our recent Kentucky connections, we are one of the few teams who could honestly feel pretty decent about Cousins impact on the locker room/court. He's already killed a coach, and he's not even an all-star. Of course, I love him, so maybe sacramento feels like I do...
I'd planned to keep my promise to shut up & wait, but since you asked about the CBA, I thought I should respond. What I can tell you is the Restricted Free Agency language in the 2011 contract is essentially the same as in the previous two CBAs, except that now the ROFR team has only 3 days to match a signed offer sheet. My understanding is this reduction to 3 days was sought by the Players Association and agreed to by the owners in the 2011 CBA. It sounds like having a copy of the 2011 CBA is pretty valuable. Also, my personal opinion is, if the Hornets have received or do receive the elusive signed offer sheet for Gordon, I'd like to see them match it. He'd be a heck of a 2 surrounded by Anderson, Davis, Rivers, etc., and I'm confident Monty has what it takes to "manage" Gordon effectively. So, I'm actually rooting for you to be right on the offer sheet issue. Finally, you may wish to take a look at the "Time Periods" provision of the CBA. Now I will definitely shut up & wait. Keep up the good work.
I'm a little insulted that you won't acknowledge the obvious difference between the signing of an offer sheet, which by itself requires no response from the Hornets (for example, either Eric Gordon or the Suns or both could simply choose to put the offer sheet away in a drawer in order to use it as leverage and to buy more time to make a decision or a deal), and the offer sheet having been “actually received by the ROFR [Right Of First Refusal] Team” (see Article XI of the Collective Bargaining Agreement). Your website gained credibility by confronting the Times-Picayune's July 5 sign & trade error, but now you appear to be doing the same thing you accused the T-P of doing. Assuming a tweet is an acceptable source by today's journalism standards for an initial internet posting, shouldn't there be some eventual confirmation from a more legitimate source? It's now more than HALFWAY through what you claim is a pending 72 hour deadline (perhaps the most important 72 hour decision in franchise history), and, though you brag that you have Larry Coon "on speed dial," you still haven't verified what the real deadline is, if in fact there is one pending at all. And there's a decent chance your report of a Saturday afternoon deadline may be wrong; for example, even if it's true that an offer sheet was signed in Phoenix on Wednesday (as has been reported by the Suns and only by the Suns), the signed offer sheet probably could not have been delivered to the Hornets until Thursday, at the earliest, which, if true, means the Hornets' deadline is Sunday and not Saturday (as I noted earlier, the CBA provides "An Offer Sheet shall be deemed given only when actually received by the ROFR Team"). What's happening here is, just like John Reid did, when confronted with facts that contradict your story, you're holding your breath, concocting versimilitude and hoping events will not unfold in a way that exposes an error. I hope you're not forced to backpedal when Saturday afternoon comes and goes with no news that the Hornets have matched or rejected a signed offer sheet or if we receive news of some type of sign & trade. I'd certainly prefer to know the facts rather than for you and I to speculate about them. In the end, you guys and your website are a great source for accurate information (usually) that we Hornets fans crave. If it turns out, however, that your reported Saturday afternoon deadline passes without any decision, or if a sign & trade occurs instead, I hope you'll have the cojones to admit that the fundamental premise of your report (“The Hornets have until the afternoon of July 14th to make the decision on whether or not to match the offer and keep him on the Hornets. If they do not act in this time, then Eric Gordon will become a member of the Suns”) was wrong. Now that I've done your CBA research for you, I wouldn't mind it at all if -- before your alleged deadline arrives -- you were to find out from the Hornets, the Suns, Eric Gordon, Gordon's agent, the NBA or the Players Association (all of whom should know, according to the CBA) if and when a signed offer sheet was “actually received by the ROFR Team.” I mean no disrespect, but I'd try to find out the answers myself if I had your media credentials. I'm going to conclude by emphasizing what's clear to me -- that you do not have sufficient facts to support the existence of any deadline -- and then I'll just shut up and wait to see what happens.
The only thing I "feel," sir, is like I felt on July 5 when I was conversing with John Reid about the Sign&Trade issue. You reported that the 3-day deadline began yesterday ("The Hornets have until the afternoon of July 14th to make the decision on whether or not to match the offer and keep him on the Hornets. If they do not act in this time, then Eric Gordon will become a member of the Suns"); I didn't report that. I'm just a casual fan. I've looked everywhere and have seen no report that the offer sheet was "actually received by the ROFR Team." What facts do you have to support your claim that it was? It seems to me you could be wrong in your calculation of the deadline. I'm honestly just curious and I sincerely mean no disrespect. I love your website and the great work you guys do.
From Article XI of the CBA: When a Restricted Free Agent receives an offer to sign a Player Contract from a Team (the "New Team") other than the ROFR Team, which he desires to accept, he shall give to the ROFR Team a completed certificate substantially in the form of Exhibit G annexed hereto (the "Offer Sheet"), signed by the Restricted Free Agent and the New Team..... On the same day as the giving of an Offer Sheet to the ROFR Team, the ROFR Team shall cause a copy thereof to be be given to the NBA, which shall cause a copy thereof to be promptly given to the Players Association. An Offer Sheet shall be deemed given only when actually received by the ROFR Team.
The way I read the Collective Bargaining Agreement, it appears it is the PLAYER himself who is responsible for delivering the signed offer sheet to the "ROFR" (i.e. Right of First Refusal) team (meaning the Hornets); it also appears that the simple act of "signing" an offer sheet in and of itself has no significance, or in other words, imposes no obligation on the ROFR team to match or not match. Perhaps Larry Coon can clarify whether this is a correct reading of the CBA. But it appears to me that unless and until Eric Gordon actually gives the signed offer sheet to the Hornets, then there is no pending deadline.
Am I the only person who thinks it's odd that even now, 18 hours since you reported that one of the most important 72 hour decisions in Hornets history was pending, you still don't know the real answers to any of these questions. I'll "stay tuned," as you suggested.
Howard is looking to play for a contender in a large market. Reports say he wants to play in Brooklyn. I don't think Howard is a possibility nor does the team want/need the headache and hassle. Unless you are referring to another D. Howard. Or joking. I don't believe Anderson has never been quick enough to guard SFs.
CP can't sign for the same as d-will and Griffin. He can only sign for four years because each team can only have one 5 year player. This becomes particularly important because the last year of the contract is worth about 25% of the entire value in a 5 year deal
It's not such a crazy idea. The Hornets could still sign & trade Gordon, with his consent, after matching the Suns' signed offer (if it's really been delivered to the Hornets). Blazers' GM knows Gordon from the Clippers. Batum has said he likes the idea of playing for Monty and he wants no part of playing for the Blazers. Portland just withdrew its qualifying offer to Hibbert. And ESPN is reporting that a 3 team deal for Batum that lands a shooting guard in Portland is under consideration. http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8157984/source-portland-trail-blazers-minnesota-timberwolves-discussing-nicolas-batum-deal This story may still have a few twists & turns before it's over.
You know, I just have to say it . . . The question is just as important as the answer. The Answer to the Great Question of Life, the Universe and Everything is Forty-Two. What is the question?!?!? (Of course, What do you get if you multiply six by nine?) Gotta ask the right question. Got to.
I agree and am well-aware of the 3 day change. So... can you point me to a copy? And, do you have data to say it was not received as of some point in time after I referred to, or are you being a healthy skeptic, which I can appreciate?
One thing my research hasn't yielded, however, is an offical copy of the 2011 CBA. Where did you get your copy of that CBA? I see where to get the 2005 one.
I disagree, and I'm not sure what's being done that would be insulting to you. There was the tweet. This kicked off the report that they guy said that. Then, I inquired about the press release from the Suns, doing exactly as you suggested. There is no requirement that the Hornets release such a thing, nor the Suns. The Hornets did not, the Suns did. It confirmed the tweet, so the situation is as it stands. As you can see in our Ryan Anderson story, the initial reports of a $36m deal were contradicted by later reports of a $34m deal. I included this info, leaving the original one in there. I have yet to see confirmation of either or a third deal. When I did the cap piece, I detailed my assumptions and asked for criticism. When we were talking earlier, I did not have access to the press release to check the time it was issued. When I had access to it, it verified the facts (not assume about them), then posted them here. Here is a quote from it: The Phoenix Suns have signed restricted free agent guard Eric Gordon to an offer sheet, the club announced today. Under the terms of the NBA’s Collective Bargaining Agreement, the New Orleans Hornets have three days to match the Suns’ offer and retain his rights. Make of it what you want. When these things go public, they have some force. Again, it was July 11th, and around 5 CDT. You want things proven to you. I understand that. The lack of that proof to you does not mean the facts are not as they are. I would demand the facts you are demanding, but, to me, this constitutes the part of the transaction you are referencing as being completed. We have these. The tweet kicked off the verification of the facts. I fail to see the problem. Not everyone wants to see the sausage being made or the pig being slaughtered. You ask, so you get the story. Do you feel it is sufficient? Is everyone as thorogh as me in every case? Likely not. Bang on them if they screw up. Bang on me if I screw up later. In this case, I don't see it. Of course, I haven't seen the offer sheet. I'm not sure any media type does. Also, I don't have such credentials. I'm just very good at research. I make mistakes, just like any expert, but I'm good at it.
Stein had a tweet. It was reasonable. It was cited. Nothing has come out to contradict it. There are paperwork delays, reporting delays, physicals, etc. We know that. If we reported the totality of the situation at each moment, each post would be 10,000 words and would look like a form letter. We are learning and reporting in our free time (emphasis on free). We need all the help we can get, and that includes leeway. Again, we have a supported hypothesis. I am a scientist. I will change my hypothesis if data suggests it, and I have not problem being led astray by good data, good reasoning, and practical assumptions.
Do you expect us to know the Hornets' business plans when leaks can screw up those plans? What do you expect to know at this time?
I think it's the designated player that you can only have one of, and that is available to extensions of rookie contracts only. You can only have one on your roster you gave, and only one you acquired in trade. That's it.