Great observation, and one I agree with. I was referring to you saying we English geeks are treating language and grammar like it's math. Well it is, and too many people treat it likes it's not. I may not the math most folks like to consider, but it's math nonetheless. I suggest The Language Instinct by Stephen Pinker for a nice treatment without any formal mathematics. He was a student of Noam Chomsky at MIT and writes really well.
Marcus Thornton Silences “The Haters”
Okay, I will admit that the title of this article might be a little misleading because I am not really going to take a comprehensive look at Marcus Thornton, nor will I give an opinion on his role moving forward. I put his name in the title because I know it will get each and every one of you to click on it, regardless of your opinion on the 6’4″ guard out of LSU. I know he is polarizing and everyone has an opinion on the man, but what I really want is your opinion on this- “What is a HATER?”
This term has become so overused in the media, on message boards, in popular music, in sports. It has spawned terms for sunglasses, a.k.a. “hater blockers.” People have taken a popular drink that first surfaced at the University of Florida and retitled it “Haterade.” There are even counter measures to this act, as “hater baiting” is a new tactic meant to behave in a manner intended to provoke haters or trick closet haters to reveal their true nature.
The mute button on your cell phone is now sometimes referred to as the “hater button” and March 12th has been labeled “Hater Day”, as it is the official day set aside to be nice to your haters. You think I am making any of this up? Google it you Haters.
But seriously, can anybody here even tell me what a “hater” is? Â I see it used in so many contexts and I could not help but notice how all the “pro-Thornton” people were calling the “anti-Thornton” people Haters. But is this justified? Well, I guess we first have to define what a hater is before we know for sure.
The first necessary component I think we can all agree on is that a Hater must have some form of dislike for said Subject that they are “hating on.” This can not be the only prerequisite however, as we do not call those who were disturbed by the Holocaust “Nazi Haters”- there must be some additional components as well. Based on this specific example, most would say that those people are not called Nazi Haters, because they are justified in their belief that what the Nazi’s did warrented some level of dissatisfaction.
This opens up a whole can of subjectivity that muddies the water of the issue. If it is merely condemning when you are justified, but Hating when you are not justified, then who is to say which is which? Are there Obama Haters? Should there be? How about Joan of Arc Haters? I am sure there are a handful of people who would have legitimate issues with her.
Which brings us back around to Thornton and his Hater Nation of fans, and some have even speculated, his head coach. Is Monty Williams the biggest Marcus Thornton hater of them all? Most feel that he is because there is not enough empirical evidence out there to support his decision not to play him. Nobody is labeling Monty as a Pops Mensah-Bonsu hater (well almost nobody), but that is because there is no evidence of Pops being able to become a difference maker for a struggling team. Thornton has showed on multiple occassions this year that he could be just that, although to be fair, he has also showed plenty of moments on the court that make Monty’s decision seem justified.
What I will propose to you is this- a definition for what a hater is and I will let each of you decide whether your fellow Hornets fans and your Hornets coaches are truly “Marcus Haters.” I believe that for one to be a Hater, he or she must knowingly want to see the subject of their hating fail due to some desire for personal gain. The gain need not be significant, but some gain is necessary, and it could even influence the hater to actively hold down the subject or ignore the subjects positive contributions.
Basically I do not believe that critique or evaluation of weaknesses should be labeled “hating”, but far too often they are deemed as such. I also think that a conflict of values are often times seen as “hating”, when in actuality they are just a difference of opinion. If a defensive minded coach in any sport values not turning the ball over above all else, he is not “hating” on the high risk/high reward player, he is just sticking to his philosophy.
It is such a simple word to throw around, but it is ignorant to do so, and we are all more educated that that. We owe it to ourselves to see things from multiple angles, and agree to disagree at times without just labeling others “haters.” Of course, if you disagree with me, I understand- I just ask that when March 12th comes around, you show me a little love.
Some of you English geeks are really treating language and grammar like it's math. Hater comes from the word "player hater"...which evolved from the phrase "don't hate the player hate the game" A player hater was a man or woman that has meritless/insulting criticism for someone who was good at getting women. Whether it be jealousy or some form of cockblocking. It shortened to "hater" which was a broad term for anyone who dislikes something or someone without any merit, little merit, or for the sake of personal selfish reasons. Hater does not mean you actually hate that person. It just means you can't substantiate your criticism with any real substance. Now some people take it too far and label anything as criticism or not liking someone or something as hate. That's where it gets muddy. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you're hating. Ex. I hate Lebron James, he has no rings, he's a ball hog, he's a traitor and he can't win games in the 4th quarter, he's nothing like kobe...= Hate I'm not a fan of lebron james, I don't like the way he handled free agency, he hasn't worked on his low post game, he's not the best shooter, tends to play lebron ball in the 4th quarter...etc... NOT hate. Hating is also with intention...So you can say something totally constructive and your motivation be a little shady. Therefore, Many people use the word Hate/hating/hater.... in a variety of ways. It's mostly about intent and motivation behind the words than the actual words itself. This is not math. someone might think you're hating and someone might not see it as hating. Even then, even if your intent is constructive, your words still can be taken as "hate".
come on every player on the team is no better on defense thaen Marcus!! look at what the produce with the minutes they are given Monty sucks as a coach just like Byron Scott did
I just hope Marcus Thornton can do this (1) consistently and (2) against better competition. GREAT GAME MARCUS, but the only thing Iâ€™ve ever criticized Marcus for was inconsistency. This game proves he can play good basketball â€¦ it doesnâ€™t prove consistency! L_Reazy
everyone talks about Marcus Thorton not getting enough minutes and blaming Monty for it, well yeah Monty is the reason for him warming the bench most games but it seems the reason behind this is Monty is trying to improve our defense and Thorton just isn't a good defensive player. If he wants to see more minutes he has to show the he can defend as well as produce on the offensive side. Correct me if im worng but that doesn't make Monty a "Marcus hater" but simply a good coach trying to do whats best for the team.
First, I address Michael's comment that Buckets is "polarizing." Nothing could be further from the truth. Everyone recognizes that he is the savior of this team; no one has ever uttered a dissenting opinion. I shall now continue to read the article.
CP3 tweeted.... 2 words for 2nites game...MARCUS THORTON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! about 21 hours ago via Twitter for BlackBerryÂ®
I was just so happy to see him contributing in a positive way last night. I said in another thread that I hadn't been complaining about Thornton not playing but when your offense has been sucking as hard as the Hornets had been sucking and you have instant offense sitting on your bench, you've got to give that guy a try.
Why do I have the gut feeling that even after last night, nothing has changed with Monty? People are already making the "well, we'll see if he can keep it up and earn his minutes" cop-outs for Monty (CP3, Gil McGregor, etc.). I'm afraid that Marcus has a bad game Friday and we won't see him for 2 weeks.
Not sure why Thornton isn't getting his fair share of minutes, there has to be a disconnect between him and Monty Williams.
The Fact is We need that 3rd guy when teams are keeping CP out the lane and D West is being doubled or just not hitting his 18 footers..Some nights Marco looks like that guy but for whatever Reason he just doesn't Bring it Every night..We all know from last year that MT5 can be that guy.. I mean when you lose by 10 or whatever it's tough as fans to know that we had a 20ppg guy sitting on the bench..It's easy to question the coaching but None of us can do Better so keep Monty out of your comments..We just gotta hope he saw what we've been knowing for a while now.. On another note if there's any questions you guys would like to ask the Hornets Players..Just let me know..I'll get the Answers
I like MT5...hes very talented...but you guys are obsessed....Its been ONE game and your hailing him as if he's MJ reincarnated(even though mj isnt dead...well Jordan isnt dead) the point is Lets Win some more games first with him having similar games like the one your praising him for
"I hate you, I hate you, I don't know you but I hate your guts...I hope all of the bad things in life happen to you" -Silky Johnson
There's an important question about the Marcus Thornton situation, but quibbling about the definition of "hater" doesn't address the real issue at all. The real issue is coaching philosophy. Coach Williams inherited a popular but not well rounded player whose strengths do not match the coach's philosophy. For the first 10+ games, the coach was able to win with his philosophy. Marcus Thornton sat. In the last 12 games, the system didn't work so well, but the coach stuck to it because that's what it says you gotta do in all the books. Last night the coach did what it took to win. Obviously somebody on his staff pointed out to him that at the end of the season, the GM wasn't going to ask him, "Hey, did you stick to your philosophy?" The GM was going to ask him "Is it a winning philosophy?" The lesson: winning philosophies are the ones that adjust to accommodate talent. Always have, always will. At the end of the day, you have to produce a winning program. Purism is fine if you get the results you want, but it becomes pure stubbornness when you don't. We live in a city with a head coach who delights in breaking with conventional wisdom and predictability, and wins doing it. Hopefully, some of that is rubbing off on Coach Williams, and he'll become more and more comfortable going offscript. The only way "hate" comes into play is when hating to lose gets to be more important than sticking to an unproductive philosophy.
Just because someone doesn't like something, doesn't make them a hater. Like MaxJD said, "u have to have a PHD. Also known as a Player Haters Degree." Furthermore, if you sip Hatearade as your PHD hangs on the wall, whilst listening to Bill O'Reily's Hateathon, then it's said you have a diversified Hate Portfolio. MT5's Theme Song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxra2Nn7K9Y&feature=related
Personally I think the term Hater does an injustice to Hate. Call me an Hater hater. Not the people, mind you, the lexicographic choice. Whatever it is Haters do, it's not hating. Nazis hated. They, for instance, got up really early, no snooze or anything, to do badness. Fat Albert Haters don't do such things. They communicate about him when they have little else to do, or are paid to do so. They don't butcher his children slowly while he and their mother watch helplessly. While I've uncorked: Literally is often not used correctly, for instance prefacing a figurative phrase with it. "I literally dropped dead when he said that." Unique means a certain set has exactly one element. This can not be modified or heightened, for example, more unique, very unique. Resilience is what people talk about when they say resiliencey. Commentators should be commenters, and commentating and commentation are not words. Physicality, not physicalness. I am so not the only one who has these peeves. Carlin had a rant about unique, and there is an interesting take in Freakanomics.
You guys have it all wrong, in order to be a true hater, you have to have a PHD. Also known as a Player Haters Degree.. That's the correct context of the word "hater" Just because Coach Williams doesn't play marcus doesn't make him a hater. The fuy is a nice guy! He has no PHD...
Michael: Most of the posts I've read in the aftermath of last night's comeback win revolve around wether or not MT5 should displace somebody(ies) in the current rotation. I beleive his incorporation into the rotation won't be that disruptive. Did anyone notice that last night's comeback was happening with essentially a three-guard line up? I'm not saying it will work with every opponent, but it can be surprisingly effective against many teams. We have a good mixture of shooters, slashers, distributors (in the backcourt) with varying degrees of defensive abilities . You can cover a lot of needs with the right mixture of players. Against Utah for instance, if Trevor is not a factor I believe CP3, Marcus and Marco could man the floor with Paul and Thorton playing defense against the Jazz backcourt and Belinelli assigned to track Kerilenko. Just a thought. I think last night's game, and results more than anything else, provide the Pollenators with more opportunities on how they deploy different line ups.
A very unique topic indeed! Am I a "hater" if I only want to see basketball related topics all the time? I sure hope not. But, all jokes aside, "haters" are just the ones who are challenging the opinion of the people labeling them as such! Some enjoy being a "hater". They feel as if they need to be a villain or go against the popular stream. I feel though, that it's all about letting your opinion being known and not feeling comfortable with someone challenging that opinion! I haven't posted very often on here, but I have posted some views on the Marcus conversations. I don't hate the man! I don't even remotely dislike him! I'm sure most who have posted there opinion on him would say they don't hate him! But you gain the "hater" label because you are voicing against the popular consensus. He's from Louisiana and he went to the all mighty LSU! That almost makes him untouchable in the eyes of many! Marcus has flaws and also tremendous potential. He's not a savior, a hero, or any of those ridiculous things! He's a young man who plays basketball! Everyone is entitled to how they wanna label him! I prefer to say he's an excellent talent with upside. But, I also think he has flaws that burn holes in his game! Leave your LSU allegiance out of this and ask yourself, how many teams would this guy start for? Some will say a ton and some will say maybe a few. Again, it's a matter of opinion. So you can have yours and the "haters" will have theirs.
I think NBA refs are "Marcus haters". He has got to lead the NBA in # of offensive fouls per minutes played. He got hit with 2 of them last night. One was legit, but the other was a horrible call. I alsmost never blame refs for wins and losses, but since we are talking about "haters", I'll certainly include them here. Its almost like Marcus can't see the floor without getting an offensive foul called against him.