The Arguments for Deron Williams

By:
Published: October 8, 2010

Utah Jazz fans, and really just D-Willers in general, have recently decided to bring back the old debate about who is the best point guard in the NBA. Most of the arguments are the same, but with Paul’s recent injury a few of them seem stronger. Let’s look at the more common reasons why they think Deron Williams is better than Chris Paul.

The argument of health- This is quite popular nowadays, but it’s really not based on anything more than a fluke injury. As for that fluke injury potentially lingering, nobody cares about your pretend medical opinion. The fact is, this argument wouldn’t exist if not for a wayward pass by David West. Through both players’ first four season in the league, Deron had missed 18 games, and Paul 28. That comes out to 10 games over the course of four seasons, or 2.5 per year. Since they were drafted, Paul has played 12,881 minutes, while Williams has logged 13,623. That 5% difference hardly make a concrete case that one gets hurt more than the other, or is “injury prone”.

Turtle Power!

The argument of loyalty- This one has been popping up a bit, and for good reason. Paul wanted out of New Orleans and supposedly sent Beebop and Rocksteady behind the scenes to make it happen. Or something like that. Anyway, there is a case to be made that right now that D-Will is a more valuable asset, or more desirable, or whatever, because of his supposed loyalty. That’s fine and acceptable. The problem is that this argument has nothing to do with playing basketball, and everything to do with off the court issues. It has no business being used in a debate about who is the best point guard on the court.

The head to head argument- This  has been around a while, and still isn’t fooling anyone except the D-Willers. Essentially they like to just throw 24/25ths of all games entirely out the window, and instead focus on the remaining 1/25th. Sure, those games prove that Deron Williams’ team has thus far kicked Chris Paul’s team all over the court, and that Deron has so far outplayed Paul when they have been matched up, but that’s all that it means. Take the Nadal-Federer rivalry in tennis for instance. Nadal tends to beat Federer when they play heads up, but Federer is still considered the all time best, while Nadal isn’t even within shouting distance of the conversation. You might say that Nadal is better than Federer heads up, but to argue that he’s a better player overall would be foolish.

The argument for defense- Although it’s hard to evaluate defense using statistical measures, Paul and Deron are both undeniably good defenders. Paul has been voted onto the All-Defensive first team and second team, while Deron hasn’t been mentioned. So as of now there hasn’t been any good argument that he’s better defensively than Paul. Have one? Leave a link.

The argument for Chris Paul being better is fairly simple, so there’s no need to waste time detailing it. Look at any statistical measure (PER, adjusted +/-, efficiency ratings, APER, win score, clutch stats, whatever) and it’s clear who fares better. There are no advanced statistical measures of overall performance that favor Deron.

115 Comments

  1. 42

    October 8, 2010 at 11:16 am

    Joe . . . Joe, Joe, Joe . . .

    I was promised more than one argument for Deron Williams and you haven’t provided one. Tsk, tsk . . . for shame!

    I will overcome this shortcoming, if you don’t mind, and provide an argument:

    Because.

    And if you foolishly try to refute this, I have a counter-argument here at no extra cost:

    Nuh-uh.

    Now THAT is how you go to work!

    Gimme my entourage and an ipod!

    ________
    Disclaimer: This sarcasm has been brought to you by Mathematicians Who Love Sarcasm, where 2 + 2 = The Answer

  2. Speed

    October 8, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    I guess the GM’s in the league don’t no anything. They Voted D-Will by a large margin.

  3. j

    October 8, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    That argument only holds water if you admit that the GM’s were right when they voted Paul as the best pg for the 3 years prior. So… which is it.

  4. hewhorocks

    October 8, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    Actually Im not sure they prefer D-Will at all. “What?” you say!

    Well lets math! 30 GM’s = 3.3% per gm but Billups got 3.6% so not everyone voted. (If he got 3.3% we’d say he got one vote) Seeing that D-Will got 50% of the vote by respondents we know that an even number voted. (cant get 1/2 votes) So 28 votes in all. D-will got 14 votes. Because you cant vote for your own player and we know Dell likes CP3… if we assume that Dell voted for D-Will thats 13 votes. Well Maths tell us that CP3 got 10 votes. If Dell was allowed to vote for CP3 thats 11. 2 respondents didnt vote. Hmm if they like CP3 that puts us at 13votes…a tie. In truth D-Wills coach couldnt vote for him but Nash got 3 votes so who knows. Point is GMS didnt indicate a clear preference for D-will by a large margin.

    For what its worth…

    • 42

      October 8, 2010 at 1:45 pm

      Sweet!

      You made my day.

      Seriously.

      hewhorocks rocks.

  5. Humil

    October 8, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    Really? As much as I am wowed by CP3’s game, he’s kinda a pain right now… and has not been the same, or provided the continuity desperately needed by his team/required of THE team leader since that near-magical ’07-08 season. Hometown bias/support (for NOLA) aside, Deron Williams is pretty sick and I would take him, after some considerations, to anchor a team, if I were to build one right now.

  6. You suck

    October 8, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    Its hard to swallow the red pill, so I dont blame you for clinging to your desperate “look at the stats!!!!” arguments. You think Paul is better against the rest of the league but just not against Deron. I say, Deron is better against the rest of the league AND against Paul. Why? Well, I dont remember Billups’ Nuggets winning by 58 in the playoffs against the Jazz. That was against the Hornets. The Jazz, sans starters Okur and Kirilenko, smoked that SAME Nugs team a year later in the playoffs. Oh yeah, DWill averaged 25 and 12 in that series since you are so big on stats.

    The arguments for Paul are becoming hackneyed and weak. The GMs know this. Charles Barkley knows this. Current NBA players know this. Paul is being left behind, and with good reason.

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 8, 2010 at 2:24 pm

      You do realize that you are taking one game and one series, and then using them as if they are representative of the entire picture? Fact is, Paul’s stats are better across the board, regardless of your opinion, or that his TEAM lost by 58.

      Not sure how to explain that any more clearly.

  7. kato

    October 8, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    not even close…

    look at the body of work. write this when paul is healthy for a full season, leads a team consistently to the playoffs, doesn’t undermine a coach and a franchise…

    good try, nice effort

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 8, 2010 at 2:27 pm

      The thing, kato, is that I do look at an entire body of work. I see that overall Paul’s stats are historically excellent. His turnover rate simply blows Deron’s out of the water. It’s one of the best ever.

      I feel like you just didn’t read this at all, so I don’t know why I’m bothering to respond to you. Seriously, read the section about injuries. There is a 5% difference in minutes played, even counting last year, between Paul and Williams.

      Sorry to use stats to burst your bubble.

      • Big A

        October 8, 2010 at 2:50 pm

        Stats are overrated…So you would say that the 82-83 Nuggets are the best offensive team in NBA history because they scored the most points per game, right? Wrong. Stats fail to state that Alex English, Dan Issel, and Co. were horrible on the defensive end. Teams only held on to the ball for about 10 seconds because they abused the Nuggs D. This in turn provided more possesions per game, thus more points…. stats can be molded into any argument. Show me a ring…

      • Joe Gerrity

        October 8, 2010 at 3:25 pm

        No, I would not say that. Using a stat like points per game to define the best team ever makes no sense at all. And your assertion that stats fail to state how a team does on defense is completely wrong. You can’t use points per game to determining it (obviously), but you can use points allowed per possession, or look at the oppositions efficiency rating.

      • 42

        October 8, 2010 at 5:44 pm

        @Big A: You can also try to turn a screw with your fingernail, but in the end you get hurt or waste your time when you use the wrong tool (stat). It’s nice that you are trying, just try better. One day, it may pay off and you’ll be glad you put in the time.

        A- at best.

      • JCS

        October 8, 2010 at 11:51 pm

        @Big A
        To my knowledge, there are no shortcuts to glory. So in order to get a ring in the NBA, you are going to have to have the best team, which translates to the best players, which equals 1st team guys who get the best stats in the league. Secondly, if you love the game then you should know that stats are an integral part of it, and will be so until the end of time. Lastly, if you are going to refer to greatest of all time, of whom played during the peak of the NBA, then it would be in your best interests to do proper research before you draw any conclusions.

        Jordan vs. the Old Heads:
        http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_nba_stars.htm

        Jordan vs. the Young Fellas:
        http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_current_stars.htm

      • JCS

        October 9, 2010 at 7:50 pm

        @Joe G.
        Could you please cut my comment and past over the one below? I did not mean to double-post like that. Thanks.

  8. 42

    October 8, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    . . . because . . . nuh-uh . . . becuase . . . nuh-uh . . .

    I love it when a plan comes together. I mean, really, are these guys seriously just following the script I laid out? Just “Chris bad” by fiat?

  9. Big A

    October 8, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    It all depends on what style of ball you like. You want a banger….DWill is your man. Your want a push the ball speedster…..Paul is that. Stats don’t mean jack-. Jordan is the best of all times. If you didn’t know about him and looked in an All- time NBA stat book, one wouldn’t even put him in the top 5 based on stats. Stats are for fantasy ball. Rings are what counts in this league. So, the first one out of these two to get the ring wins this debate…no excuses, hands down. If I had to choose between these guys, I prefer a banger, I would go with DWill. I like a point that can post up…

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 8, 2010 at 3:28 pm

      Actually stats prove Jordan was awesome. Just because you are looking at the wrong ones, doesn’t mean that the right ones aren’t there. Check out PER, for instance.

      And that’s fine that you prefer D-Will for whatever reason, but when you say he’s better than Chris Paul, you are basing that on completely subjective analysis. All the objective stuff (stats) show Paul being a better player.

      As for the posting up- Deron only took 50 shots while posting up last year.

    • Kamron

      October 8, 2010 at 3:36 pm

      “So, the first one out of these two to get the ring wins this debate…no excuses, hands down.”

      That’d be great if rings were an individual achievement. Since they aren’t, I don’t see the point in judging individuals solely on the performance of their teams.
      The best PG in the league last year? Derek Fisher, if rings trump everything else, including common sense.

    • QueenBee

      October 8, 2010 at 4:09 pm

      You like a point that can post up and I like a point that can blow by bigger guards with relative ease. We are no longer in the age of post up point guards. Perhaps unless you’re an older point guard like Andre Miller. You prefer a banger but D-Will doesn’t bang. LOL. Some guards have tried to post up Paul but he doesn’t allow himself to get posted up over and over. And he’s strong. Yeah, he’s small but he’s strong. So say trainers and assistant coaches.

    • JCS

      October 8, 2010 at 8:23 pm

      Apparently, Big A stands for Big A Clown, b/c your comment is the silliest thing I’ve read all month. First off, understand that there are no shortcuts to glory. So in order to get a ring in the NBA, you are going to have to have the best team, which translates to the best players, which equals 1st team guys who get the best stats in the league. Secondly, if you love the game then you should know that stats are an integral part of it, and will be so until the end of time. Lastly, if you are going to refer to greatest of all time, of whom played during the peak of the NBA, then do your homework before you make comments.

      Jordan vs. the Old Heads:
      http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_nba_stars.htm

      Jordan vs. the Young Fellas:
      http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_current_stars.htm

  10. ernest

    October 8, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    So,

    Is Chris Paul a better basketball player than Kobe? I would assume your answers are the same since by all statistical measures Chris Paul outperforms Kobe.

    Conclusion, our definition of better basketball player (or PG), isn’t necessarily tied to statistics and includes significant intangible factors.

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 8, 2010 at 3:50 pm

      A healthy CP3 is better than Kobe at this point. Hard to compare them int eh past since they played different positions, but I’ll agree that intangible factors give the obvious edge to Kobe now in terms of who is the better player. He’s had a whole career.

      When I look at CP3 and D-will though, I don’t see an intangible factor that really puts Deron ahead of Paul. Paul is more clutch, he’s been the undisputed leader of his team since he came into the league, and he IS the offense.

      I use stats to get a good gauge of who is a better pg, and then subjective measures to determine if it’s really close. Fact is, it’s not that close statistically. You can look at points and assists and say “sure, they are really close”, but when you get into stuff like adjusted plus/minus, APER, assist/to rate, etc, they just aren’t on the same level. that’s why I’m not swayed by this argument for intangible factors. Nobody has every really been able to show what they are, or in what way they are superior to Paul’s.

      Like I said, Williams is one of the best point guards right now. Paul (if he continues at this pace) will be one of the best of all time, statistically speaking that is.

      • Joe Gerrity

        October 8, 2010 at 3:54 pm

        I appreciate the cordial response/comment. Don’t get too many of those on this topic.

      • ernest

        October 8, 2010 at 4:08 pm

        That is my point exactly. Very few people here are going to argue that CP3 is better than Kobe, aside from those who are saying the following.

        On a purely statistical level, CP3 is a better player right now than Kobe. Which means that on a purely statistical level, you would prefer to have CP3 over Kobe.

        The only people who are going to argue that are people solely looking at this from a stats perspective.

        Yes, CP3 outperforms dwills in almost every faucet. However, i would take deron for durability, future durability, non-coach killer, and winning history.

  11. Sean Freeman

    October 8, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    This shouldnt even be a debate…not only does D-Will own Chris Paul head to head, which says all you need to know, he is a better shooter, defender , and passer. Chris gets torched by any guard with size, while Deron can lock down PGS, SG, and small forwards. Chris is a good spot up shooter, but he cant get his jumper off with a legit defender on him, meanwhile D-will can shoot coming off screens, off the dribble both left and right, and can take you down in the post and abuse smaller guards. None of which Chris can do. On top of that he runs a way more sophisticated offense in Utah. There is a reason Jerry Sloan choose him over Paul, and Jerry knows point guards. Last how can anybody consider CP3 to be a superstar when he got beat at home in the playoffs by 59 points…by the nuggets!!! Would any top player in NBA history have let that happen….NO F’ing Way!!!

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 8, 2010 at 3:43 pm

      “Chris is a good spot up shooter, but he cant get his jumper off with a legit defender on him” – Yes he can, and does.

      In fact, let’s look at some stats. Last year Paul and Deron were put into Iso on 20.4 and 20.5 percent of their plays. Paul averaged 1.05 points (7th best in the league). Deron averaged .9 (45th best in the league).

      As for the idea that Paul can’t shoot off screens- Ok. Shooting off a screen isn’t exactly a required skill for a PG. Deron does it, Paul doesn’t. I imagine that the differing offenses account for the huge disparity in shots taken off screens for the two.

      • QueenBee

        October 8, 2010 at 5:20 pm

        @Joe Gerrity-LMAO @ anyone who says Paul is just a good spot up shooter and can’t get his jumper off with a legit defender on him. Hasn’t Boston been known as one of the best defensive teams in the league? Set your sights on this…

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMGS3pEpmMw&feature=related

  12. MC Welk

    October 8, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    The only indicator that favors Williams is “what have you done for me lately”?

  13. QueenBee

    October 8, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    Beebop and Rocksteady? LOL.

    Oh and of course there’s an argument for Deron being better defensively. That argument has been “Deron is bigger”. Eddy Curry and Aaron Gray FTW! They must be the best defenders in the entire league then.

    Now Joe Gerrity, why’d you have to get em all riled up again? LOL.

    I visit lots of basketball forums and have read lots and lots of articles and one question I’d like to know is, why is Chris Paul often compared to former greats but no one ever compares the great Deron Williams to these players? Is it possible ‘owning’ Chris Paul isn’t quite enough to get mentioned in the same breath as said players? Sounds to me Deron has to carry a bigger load to get mentioned alongside those other guys.

    Oh yeah, and remember when Ronnie Brewer got traded? Deron was upset about it and one of the first things Deron Williams mentioned was “that’s why I signed a 3yr contract”. Meaning, if the team doesn’t appear to be progressing, he too may seek to go elsewhere. So don’t come acting like Deron is oozing with loyalty to the Jazz organization.

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 8, 2010 at 4:48 pm

      I was wondering if anyone would put together that in that metaphor, CP3 is Shredder. It wasn’t my intention when I first wrote it, but I just wanted to use Beebop and Rocksteady in a post. Fun names.

  14. ernest

    October 8, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    Big A, just stop talking because not only are you not proving your point, you are arguing against my point and making me look stupid.

    First, everybody knows that Jordan was the BEST player by ANY measure. Wins, clutch, stats, etc.

    Stats don’t tell you everything, but they do tell you a LOT.

    Whether or not stats are enough to drive a “who’s better than who” discussion just comes down to what your definition of “better” is.

    • Kamron

      October 8, 2010 at 3:48 pm

      “First, everybody knows that Jordan was the BEST player by ANY measure. Wins, clutch, stats, etc.”

      Wilt: 30ppg, 22rpg, 4.5apg. Jordan: 30ppg, 6rpg, 5apg. Kareem Im pretty sure has more wins, too, altho Im not going to bother counting them.

      • JCS

        October 8, 2010 at 8:05 pm

        Wilt played the center position for 14 seasons when there was very few 7 footers, teams, and ethnic diversity.

        Kareem played the center position for 20 seasons right until the Golden Era i.e. the 90’s.

        Jordan played shooting guard for 15 seasons during the Golden Era.

        All things considered, Jordan was the best:
        http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_nba_stars.htm

  15. Mike

    October 8, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    The people touting that stats are useless. Keep in mind that the people we all consider greatest of all time in their positions: Jordan, Magic, Bird, all had monster stats with respect to their peers. Basically, the stats validate our perception. In the case of Chris Paul, by the numbers, he may be the greatest PG since Magic. But because of various issues not related to his on-court performance: injuries, injuries to teammates, wanting out of a bad situation, the perception is that he is not the best PG.

    Don’t let your personal opinion and perceptions blind you. The facts are there, CP3s stats are up there with MJ, Magic, Bird. Just because Deron’s and Kobe’s team has had more success does not take away from what CP3 has been able to accomplish on an individual level. Team success is due to many factors in addition to player performance, Deron and Kobe are good-to-great players on great teams. CP3 is an incredible player on a poor team (think MJ in the beginning of his career).

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 8, 2010 at 4:00 pm

      So Chris Paul is Michael Jordan?

      I like the way you think, sir.

    • QueenBee

      October 8, 2010 at 4:06 pm

      Good post Mike. There have been few times I’ve envisioned CP3 playing alongside with players like Carlos Boozer (although I do like D-West) and Boston’s Big 3 and wondered how much better Paul would be playing with players of that caliber. I know if he played with Boston’s big 3 he’d average 12 apg easily. Heck he was at 11.6 without players of that caliber so you’ve got to think playing with those guys he’d be even better. I remember once when the Hornets were in L.A. playing the Clippers and the commentators put up a screen comparing Paul’s first 3 or 4 seasons to Magic’s first 3 or 4 seasons and they compared very closely STATISTICALLY. And then they scanned the jerseys hanging in the rafters talking about how Magic played with Kareem, Worthy, etc. while Paul has West, Devin Brown and Hilton Armstrong. I LOL’d but it was the truth.

  16. jib

    October 8, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    i gotta say some things
    1) the 58 point loss, it was lost by a TEAM as previously stated, Paul didn’t/couldn’t have done alot about it, did any Dwill fans watch that game? Do they understand the whole situation at that time? No? Then don’t act like you do or judge a performance off of one game…
    2)I see rings being brought up, neither has one, no bringing that up until one of them do.
    3) @sean freeman- dwill is a better passer? Wtf are you looking at to know that, CP3 has a better turnover rate, averages more assists, and with an equal, if not worse, supporting cast.
    4)Dwill is sick, CP3 is sick. CP3 was the best point guard in these votes and now that changed because he got injured? I’d take either one of them but don’t act like Dwill suddenly jumped ahead of paul because dwill outplayed him. The points yall make seems like dwill has always been better when that apparently wasn’t true to a majority of people (speakin of media at least, not of fan opinion)

  17. jib

    October 8, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    Oh i forget coaches, I’d imagine we would all take Jerry Sloan easily over Byron Scott or any nola coach for that matter;)

  18. QueenBee

    October 8, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    “Williams can’t touch Chris Paul on a per-minute basis, but Paul’s injuries last season reopened the debate over the league’s best point guard. Williams has become one of the NBA’s most bankable players as a 19-point, 10-assist producer at the point, and he’s become increasingly skilled at drawing fouls.”

    “For Williams to take the next step up, he has to shoot more consistently. Last season he hit 37.1 percent of his 3s, 80.1 percent of his free throws, and 43.8 percent of his long 2s. Those are very good numbers for mere mortals, but to move Williams more seriously into the best point guard conversation, they need to be more like 41-85-47.”

    That’s what Hollinger had to say about Williams 10-11 projections. I know Hollinger is easy to brush off though. Some things he gets right, some things he doesn’t. Jazz fans have been hating him because he always ranks Paul higher. They love Fox’s Charley Rosen though because Rosen hates Paul. But the quote where he says “Paul’s injuries last season REOPENED the debate….” kind of says that the debate was actually shut, but fortunately for Williams, and Paul’s injury, he gets to get it opened again. That quote kind of says it’s only reopened because of Paul’s injury. Not exactly reopened because of anything Deron Williams is doing. Deron is a great point guard though. When you look at him this season, get CP3 off your minds and try to really focus on the great things Deron is doing. That way you can really appreciate Deron more. Seriously. For real.

    • SomeDude

      October 11, 2010 at 2:08 pm

      Do you realize that you said Hollinger can be brushed off then used his “reopened the debate” point as your kill shot? Hmm…

  19. cj

    October 8, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    I think a couple things that should go into consideration is 1. Deron has taken his team into the post season every year since being drafted has paul?? Dwill has taken his team to the western conference finals has cp3 NO…And what it all comes down to is who can take a team further!! And how can all the times Dwill has completely out played and overwhelmed CP3 every time they have played not show everyone who is the better point guard!!!!!!!!

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 8, 2010 at 3:58 pm

      Maybe you should read the article before you comment. I pretty clearly address a few of your points.

      As for D-Will’s team getting further and being better- So? Rondo has a ring. Does that make him better than Deron? Of course not. It means that his team was better.

      I feel this is so obvious it didn’t need to be mentioned in the article, but apparently I was wrong.

      • QueenBee

        October 8, 2010 at 4:12 pm

        “I feel this is so obvious it didn’t need to be mentioned in the article, but apparently I was wrong.”

        Oh yeah, you definitely have to cover all corners for these guys. Don’t leave nothing out. Derek Fisher is better than both of them too didn’t you know that? Darn. I almost hate to leave you guys but I gotta go. For real this time.

    • John

      October 8, 2010 at 6:08 pm

      I would like to note that many times a player’s personal stats get inflated by playing with an inferior team it occurs frequently a player leaves an organization where everything centers around him and goes to a system or better all around team and his numbers decrease just because the supporting cast around D Will is better and he is not asked to do the things that produce some of the said ‘stats’ does not prove he is not as good. In fact this type of comparison is incredibly difficult to make different systems different teams etc. I think this is an argument that cant be answered both have there strengths and weaknesses lets see what people think after there carreers end but even then its subjective as are all things even stats are subjective to the environment that brought them about

  20. QueenBee

    October 8, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    Joe Gerrity, I’m almost disappointed in you. Don’t you think that article is a bit too short to claim it’s an argument FOR Deron Williams? Surely there is more you could have found right? Outside of Deron being healthier, bigger, owning Paul and being the most loyal player in the NBA right? Get on your job man!

    Oh and don’t forget, Deron is better than Kobe too. He’s certainly more loyal than Kobe. Remember when Kobe was on the radio with Stephen A. demanding a trade? That alone made Deron better than Kobe.

    Hehee! Gotta go get some work done. Knock yourselves out guys.

  21. Kyle

    October 8, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    One thing I’m looking forward to is how Boozer does in Chicago. We will all be able to see if it was Williams making him better, Boozer making Williams better, or (most likely) something in between. Now granted he’s now playing with Rose who is by no means bad at all and improving at a frightening rate, but things will be different. It’s only my opinion but when I’ve watched the Jazz I’ve felt that they were a solid team and Williams was a great part of that, but when I watch the Hornets it just seems like CP does so much to elevate everybody else, David West in particular.

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 8, 2010 at 3:59 pm

      Completely agree. Paul is a team by himself, for better or worse. Deron is part of a team.

      I don’t expect Deron to fall off too much, but Jefferson is no Boozer.

  22. Kamron

    October 8, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    “Deron has so far outplayed Paul when they have been matched up”

    Id take issue with that- I think it relies on stats too much.
    Take the David Robinson-Hakeem matchup from 1995; Hakeem dominated statistically, but while he was playing at the top of his game his numbers were iirc helped by the fact that the Spurs were trying to defend him one-on-one (to limit Houston’s shooters) while the Rockets were doubleteaming Robinson freely.

    Point being, it’s always hard to get the effects of team play out of analysis- it’s a team game. Wins, rings, points, assists, steals- all depend on team play.

    I like Chris Paul (I think his speed is more of a game-changer than anything Deron brings to the table). but Id second Big A’s point- these two are pretty close in overall skill level, and which performs better on a given day is probably more dependent on coaching schemes and the other players on their respective teams than some big difference in talent.

  23. Jordan

    October 8, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    Here’s a couple reasons why using advanced stats as the sole reason to back your claim is a foolish endeavor. First of all, respected sports journalist David Friedman did some tests on the accuracy of compiling stats. What he found can be read here. Also, last season, when Collison went off for his record 20-assist game, there were plenty of red flags that came up afterward. Review of the tape suggests he really didn’t. Zach Harper weighs in. Fanhouse as well. And Friedman. Links:

    http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/new-orleans-scorekeepers-again-accused-assist-inflation-collison-now-1349979/

    http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/09/assisting-darren-collisons-assists/

    http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2010/03/deflating-inflated-assist-totals.html

    So, if you’re basing your entire argument on made up stats that are calculated off of questionable boxscores, how can this be proof that you’re line of thinking is correct? If anything, it calls into question the validity of your claims even moreso.

    It’s safe to say that last season, Deron Williams was the better point guard. No question, simply for the fact that he played in 76 games to Paul’s 45. But it also bears mentioning that he carried a Utah Jazz squad missing its starting center and small forward to the second round of the playoffs on the shoulders of 24 points and 10 assists and a 24 PER.

    So maybe Deron’s not as efficient as Hollinger’s PER would like him to be. But, Deron’s teams sure have been.

    In Deron’s tenure with the Jazz, the team has never been outside of the top-8 in offensive rating: compiling seasons of 4th, 1st, and back to back 8th place rankings. Defensively, they’ve been rated 18th, 12th and 10th twice.

    On the flipside, the highest offensive-rated team of Paul’s career, was 5th in 2008, the same season he finished runner-up in the MVP race. Outside of that, a Paul-run offense has finished 12th, 18th, and 23rd. Defensively, the Hornets, have ranked 14th, 7th, 9th, and 21st. Even if you discount last season, Paul-run teams have not functioned nearly as well which shows in the wins column where the Jazz under Williams have a 206-122 record, to a Paul-led Hornets with a 181-147 record.

    Talking about systems and players is all subjective, so I’ll leave that to people who base their claims on opinion.

    And yes. It’s perfectly logical to believe GMs this season as much as we believed them last year. Is their opinion the end-all be-all? Of course not. But neither is Hollinger’s, neither is Berry’s, and neither is Joe Gerrity’s or mine.

    If Paul comes back and plays like 2008, then sure, he’ll be looked upon as the best point guard in the league again. But just like the Heat need to actually win the championship before we crown them champs, so too does Paul have to regain his title as best point in the NBA.

    He wasn’t last year due to injury, an injury that potentially could affect him the rest of his career. So, before you can say he’s the best point guard going forward based on what he did in the three seasons before last, let’s wait to see how he plays and then pass judgment.

    But, there shouldn’t be any question that the title is Deron’s to lose.

    • Kamron

      October 8, 2010 at 5:32 pm

      I don’t think anyone’s arguing that the Hornets were better than the Jazz- I don’t see the point of bringing up team statistics in this context. The Lakers had a good offensive rating last year- does that put Derek Fisher into the top PG discussion?

      You want to throw out the individual stats, since they don’t favor your position, and go with the far more nebulous idea that we can judge players more or less on how well their team performs, regardless of the quality of their teammates.

      And finally- yes if Chris Paul is permanently hobbled by injury or gets hit by a bus tomorrow, then Williams has a good case for best PG in the NBA. I wish folks like yourself weren’t salivating at the possibility though. And if I were a DW partisan, Id be embarrassed to be touting him as the best just bc the guy who’s better is hurt.

      • Jordan

        October 8, 2010 at 6:01 pm

        I’m not throwing out the regular stats. The regular stats said they were about equal last year in terms of production. CP3 was more efficient, but Williams played 31 more games automatically making him more valuable and “better.” But stats are only one part of the equation. Team success should certainly be another aspect that few people take the time to reference or research.

        As for the difference between the Lakers and Jazz and Hornets, well that’s obvious. Both the Jazz and the Hornets run everything through their point guards. Of this I’m sure we can agree. The Lakers run through Kobe or Pau. Completely different cases. There is no broad-sweeping standard that we can apply to every team. We need to take a team by team account. What I’m saying is that great point guards elevate their teams. Isn’t that what a point guard is supposed to do? Run a team. Get guys the ball. Set up the offense. Steve Nash won back-to-back MVPs because he was the mastermind behind some of the best offenses in League history. You’re telling me that team play doesn’t directly correlate to the team’s best player?

        As for touting DWill. I’m not embarrassed to admit that Williams should be considered the best because Paul fell off last year. That’s what happens. Is Yao Ming the best or second best center now, just because he was two years ago? No. Paul had an amazing two-year run where stats, GMs, and team success all came together to point to one fact…that he was the best point guard in the NBA.

        While I’m extremely skeptical about advanced stats due to the reasons cited above, that doesn’t mean I don’t recognize how awesome CP3 was during that stretch. He put up a season in 2008 unmatched in terms of advanced stats in NBA history.

        But we’re not talking about two years ago. We’re talking about right now. And right now, until CP3 shows us otherwise, Williams is the best point guard.

  24. TyrantKing

    October 8, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    I remember having to make arguments like this myself back when the consensus was that Chris was the better point guard. “Well the shoe’s on the other foot now. Uncomfortable and smelly is it not?” – Ray Romano

  25. QueenBee

    October 8, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    I lol at people talking about inflated assists. Chris Paul led Team USA in assists and assists per game. I remember people were talking about Paul’s home court assists vs. away assists. I guess Chris Paul takes his personal statistician with him when he goes to play for Team USA too heh? LOL. Chris Paul holds the TEAM USA assist record in FIBA World Championship Games.

    To anyone saying Deron was the best point guard last season, if he was it was because Paul was out. But that’s not Deron’s problem or fault. He shouldn’t be penalized because of Paul being out. But deep down inside you all know that when Paul is on the court, there is no question. Yeah you do. You know deep down inside. Admit it. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jazz/Deron fans would be so cruel as to wish another injury on Chris Paul to help their case. So basically, it’s up to Chris Paul himself to remain in good health.

    TGIF!!

  26. QueenBee

    October 8, 2010 at 5:51 pm

    Darren Collison is a stud. Don’t penalize Paul for Collison being a 4yr college player that has been to big college tournaments and knows how to play basketball and had one of the best in the game in his ear every night. If it were all about numbers and systems why the heck couldn’t Paul’s other backup points do it? Why couldn’t Bobby Brown, Antonio Daniels, Speedy Claxton, Jannero Pargo duplicate what Paul and Collison did?

  27. QueenBee

    October 8, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    OT:Anyone in Louisiana had any oysters recently? I’m craving an oyster Po-Boy.

    • 42

      October 8, 2010 at 6:06 pm

      I’m actually going hunting tonight. Maybe to Drago’s. I hear they were getting some from Oregon, which are a little smaller . . . but who cares! It’s a damned bottom-feeder covered in cheese and lemon and garlic! Cheese!

      • QueenBee

        October 8, 2010 at 7:55 pm

        I ended up getting one from Acme Oyster House. I’m totally satisfied. 🙂

      • 42

        October 8, 2010 at 9:08 pm

        I ended up with sushi from Little Tokyo. Lady’s choice and all… Damned my gentlemanly ways!

  28. Cdog

    October 8, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Here is the better reasoning for CP3 over Williams:

    Williams can, and has been, guarded by Derek Fisher succesfully in single coverage over the last 3 years. CP3 is terrifying, Williams, not so much.

    That is about all CP3 needs to be better than Williams, as every time he plays the Lakers, if the Hornets dont win, he still torches them.

  29. 42

    October 8, 2010 at 6:04 pm

    I was holding this back, actually, because I’m a modest guy, but I actually am a better point guard than either of these guys. I called it, so . . . yeah, that’s it.

    You see, I’m not paying attention to things like `shots’ and `assists’. I’m not even talking about wins. I’m talking about losses.

    Montana never lots a title when got to the big game. That’s why he’s great.

    Now, you see, I’ve never lost a game. So, I’m the greatest. Of all time? Perhaps. I’m certainly the tallest, if you ignore my height.

    Or, am I just saying irrelevant, yet true, things and deluding myself . . . and maybe you too?

    Enjoy the game, and the players for what they are, and have some respect for an honest debate, please. Watching the flailing is fun to a point, but the flailing is a little undignified.

    25 hours until the tip!

    • QueenBee

      October 8, 2010 at 6:15 pm

      I knew it 42! I knew you were better than both of them. LOL!

      Deron and the Jazz have never lost by 58 and at the same time Paul (in his few playoff appearances) and the Hornets have never been swept.

  30. John

    October 8, 2010 at 6:53 pm

    My actual point is these become invalid inflated stats not because he is improving his teammates but because they cannot pull there own weight. There also is no proof that teamless Williams couldnt do the same either way I am just pointing out that stats cant judge two different players saying someone or something is better than something else is always subjective per example you can look at 2 computers much less subjective much more widely agreed upon stats one may have faster processor, more memory, larger hardrive, and still someone can argue the other is better because some specific function may run faster or other reasons. Also Intangibles are such because they are unmeasurable the fact his team wins shows he is a winner an intangible. MY POINT IS STATS ARE INVALID TO COMPARE 2 DIFFERENT THINGS OPERATING UNDER DIFFERENT SITUATIONS THE ONLY WAY IT BECOMES VALID IS TO TEST THEM IN A CONTROL ENVIRONMENT SAME PLAYERS SYSTEMS AND ONLY THEN IF WE HAVE TRULY VALID STATS TO MEASURE BY AND WE STILL DONT

    • TopherPrice

      October 9, 2010 at 2:09 am

      So thus you are saying that there is no real way to say who is the best point guard in the league. It is all matter of opinion and we should all just agree that they are both excellent PG’s and there if you have one of the two you would not trade either for any other PG in the WORLD!!!

      —I’m looking at you Rubio, and your floppy hair and not so floppy socks. You are not El Pistola! Just stop it with the hair and the behind the back passes. No you can’t go inside to supper until you hit 100 FT in a row. Now go out and learn to shoot, if your going to keep that haircut!

      • HiMyNameisSteven

        October 9, 2010 at 2:13 am

        rubio looked awful against the lakers….awful

      • 42

        October 9, 2010 at 2:26 am

        Yes he did.

  31. Ransom

    October 8, 2010 at 10:01 pm

    Ok so while i’m not sure who i think the better point guard is, if i was drafting right now to build a team for the future, id take Deron Williams no questions asked. The reason? for all the stats that say chris paul is better, none of them apply when he isnt on the court. Chris Paul misses more games due to injury than D-will…the margin there is not small either, Dwill has played in roughly 11% more games over his career than Paul has…

  32. Benjamin Anderson

    October 8, 2010 at 10:24 pm

    do you also consider Jordan as the GREATEST player of all time even though the NUMBERS don’t prove he is. He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts – for support rather than for illumination. ~Andrew Lang

  33. Mike

    October 9, 2010 at 2:04 am

    “You might say that Nadal is better than Federer heads up, but to argue that he’s a better player overall would be foolish.”

    It is? Federer has had the better (longer) career, but Nadal’s been dominant for a while now.

  34. imblo

    October 9, 2010 at 2:09 am

    Since their rookie years, Deron has progressed more than CP3, so much so to the point that even after CP3s stellar rookie year I believe Deron is slightly better now.

    Can’t argue that CP3 is an extremely efficient player – high assist/TO, steal/TO ratios and a pretty good shot as well. However, Deron runs the Jazz offense efficiently as well. Deron calls plays for the Jazz on a lot of their sets, something the legendary Stockton didn’t do.

    However, I think Deron is a better shooter particularly from deep. CP3 is quick, but Deron is no slouch – numerous clips on you tube showing him getting by his defender should attest to that.

    Deron is a bigger point guard, and I think that helps out defensively and favours his durability. Yes, I have seen the reports which testify to CP3s surprising strength but his smaller stature means he will get caught out more on the defensive end. CP3 is a an OK defender; while he racks up the steals, his height and wingspan (or lack there of) often means he has trouble closing out perimeter shooters – something the Spurs took advantage of a few years ago in their playoff series.

  35. HiMyNameisSteven

    October 9, 2010 at 2:14 am

    simple answer to this… switch players to the other team… jazz likely have deep playoff runs past few years with cp3 and hornets are looking at the lottery every year. yes the style of play fit better where the players are at but that can be switched to match their abilities

  36. Duaneo

    October 9, 2010 at 9:53 am

    You know who I think is better? Deron. The stats are in favor of Chris, but why do I pick Deron? Because I watch him play, and I watch Chris play. Yes, stats are great, but watching a game, looking at a players impact on his teammates, on the opponents, and shoot, on the refs and opposing coaches too, matters just as much, if not more, than what any advanced stat says. How do you think Red Auerbach was able to draft and build teams so well without all the stats we have today? Oh yeah, because he actually watched the players play, a lot.
    So yes, I think Deron Williams is better than Chris Paul. But you know what? Chris Paul is a damn good player too. Both of these guys kick ass and I can’t imagine any team not wanting either one of them.
    As it stands, neither one of these guys has helped a team win a championship, and anyways, getting all huffy because someone says Paul is better, or someone says Deron is better, is pretty silly.

  37. mW

    October 9, 2010 at 10:24 am

    Joe, kudos for jumping right in it with this post. I am still working my way back into blog-shape since the offseason, so I’ll admit, I got winded trying to read all these comments. I really admire your capacity to actually argue with people who think Deron Williams is better than Chris Paul.

    Charles Barkley said it best, when he opined that Williams had overtaken the “best point guard in the League” label from CP3, and when asked why responded: “because he’s bigger.” Yes, D-Will had just last year become the best PG because he was bigger. Think about it. That’s all the logic anyone has offered here.

  38. Leroy Smith

    October 9, 2010 at 11:32 am

    Your point about using non-basketball arguments to make Deron sound like a better basketball player than CP3 is very similar to a point I try to make when people (including NBA GMs) say that Durant (who I like) is better than Lebron (who is a douche).

  39. Mazon

    October 9, 2010 at 11:48 am

    @imblo- So you’re saying that its chris paul’s fault for not blocking the corner threes that the spurs made a few years ago? and thats why deron is a better defender today? . . . I see . . .

    @Jordan- Did you notice how the year that cp3 gets hurt, the hornets team stats dropped of significantly on both ends of the court?? I wonder why that might be. . .

    @Queenbee- Great point! Deron and cp3 did play on the same team, with the same talent and chris paul dominated and outplayed that “other point guard on team usa” on the world level!

    Pretty sure mario chalmers should be in this discussion as well (since stats are overrated). . . Oh wait. Am I a year too early??

  40. nikkoewan

    October 9, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    @QueenBee: I have long accepted the fact that you can’t argue with Jazz/Deron fans regarding CP3.. 🙂

    • QueenBee

      October 9, 2010 at 3:12 pm

      Yeah I know nikkoewan. I just thought I’d take a peek in here today and it’s unbelieveable this thread is approaching 80 comments. LOL. I only scrolled down to read the comments from the ones that are familiar to hornets247. They can talk until they’re old Jazz uniform blue in the face. Won’t change my mind.

      • 42

        October 9, 2010 at 3:33 pm

        Did you notice how no Jazz guys got upset when I said I was a better point guard than Mr. Williams? I noticed.

        They didn’t get upset because the claim is stupid.

        Saying Chris Paul is better, however, seems to really hit close to home. Really close. I think the reaction speaks volumes.

  41. BeesGivingEffort

    October 9, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    It really is pretty simple.

    I have not yet heard a single person say D-Will could be the greatest of all time behind Magic. CP3 gets mentioned in the best PG ever discussion every year. Get over it. The Jazz lost out but not by much. Hell, if D-Will stays with them and CP3 leaves us, then I’d say you made the right choice. But CP3 will always be a 1-of-a-kind talent while D-Will will just be another superstar and that’s that.

    • Van

      October 9, 2010 at 7:57 pm

      I would argue its a bit premature to even mention Paul’s name in the same sentence of the elite pg the game has had to offer. As of right now he has to progress quite a bit to be mentioned in the same breath as players like Magic Johnson and John Stockton. Perhaps 5 or 6 years down the road if he maintains his pace but with injury questions now lingering that could be in question.

    • Jordan E

      October 9, 2010 at 10:48 pm

      no one making that argument probably because most people in here dont think magic is the best point guard…jazz fans would say its stockton and the stats would back that up. point being PG is a sensative subject in utah cause we had the best true point to ever play the game. so yeah its premature to compare either CP3 or D-Will to hall of famers. maybe try it when either of them are within shouting distance of 15806 (assists) and 3265 (steals)

  42. Van

    October 9, 2010 at 4:20 pm

    Statistically there is little support for Deron being a better point guard other than the fact his is 3 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier. Paul is the better shooter and gets more steals but the defense is definitively in Williams favor for a couple of reasons. First in an NBA where size is always an asset Paul has shown that he gets dominated by larger, stronger guards ala Williams and Billups. The second factor that is in Williams favor is his versatility, with his size and he slide to the 2 spot and also guard elite 2s like Bryant and Roy which he has done quite often in the past.

    While Hornets fans would simply like to just dismiss the argument based on Paul’s “Fluke” season, they cannot deny that if 60 percent of General Managers and more and more Hall of Fame players declare it, there is some substance to saying Williams has surpassed Paul. You could also make a sound argument based on the fact that the Jazz run an offensive system in the Flex that tightly restricts the output of the back court in favor of strong output from the front court. The Hornets system has always relied far more heavily on output from Paul but also given him much more free reign. If Im picking a guard based on pretty stats, I pick Paul, if Im picking a guard that has recently been more reliable, more versatile defender and a longer history of success I pick Williams.

  43. JD

    October 9, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    DWill has generally had worse interior defense than Paul and subsequently cannot gamble like Paul does so he does not rack up the steals. That’s the only reason why Paul has defensive team votes. Otherwise D-will is better at guarding physical players, Paul can stay with fast ones. The debate is close.

    The head to head argument is important but I’ll grant that it’s only 1/25th of the games. Your problem is your faith in stats. The Hornet’s playbook is such that it inflates the stats of their PG. Darren Collison too. Both great point guards (CP3 and Darren) but NO plays start with the ball in the hands of the PG and end with the PG taking the shot or making the pass for the shot. Utah’s playbook has plays where Deron is 3-4 passes away from the shot and sometimes the SG takes up the ball and Deron never touches it all play. Also, Deron is not asked to rebound on offense, he is the first man back on defense. In addition, Deron plays the perimeter on D and waits for the team to secure the board and then grabs the ball. So I’m sick of CP3 lovers throwing stats in Deron’s face. You can say that Deron has more wins because he’s on a better team, but if you say that then you also are obligated to say that Deron has to do less because he’s on a better team. So, in the end, I still say Deron is a better player because, when he does less on a better team (versus more on a worse team) his team wins more in both the regular season and the playoffs.

  44. Van

    October 9, 2010 at 8:15 pm

    Also health is a huge issue with Paul if you want to look at the reality of the stats over the course of his career, fluke injury or not he was still injured, he has still missed consistent time over the course of five years

    Deron Williams Games played over a 5 year period: 382
    total number of games over 5 years 410
    so 382/410 is 0.932 (rounded up) or 93.2 percent of games over the course of his 5 seasons he has played in missing only a 6.8 percent average per year

    Chris Paul’s games played in a course of 5 yeas: 345
    so 345/410 is 0.841 or 84.1 percent of games played over a course of 5 seasons
    meaning Paul has missed on average 25.9 percent of his games on average over the course of 5 years

    Thats nearly 4 times the amount of missed games as Deron Williams
    far from an invalid argument, get your facts straight son.

  45. 42

    October 9, 2010 at 8:37 pm

    When you take that tone and call people names like son, you may lose the grace people will give you when you base your ire, not argument, on typing a 2 instead of a 1 in 15.9, or mess up the subtraction.

    Just a tip, me to you. Enjoy.

    • Van

      October 10, 2010 at 12:17 am

      Ire for people who seem inclined to place such high value on statistics then omit the 5th year injury of Paul’s career as a fluke? sure

      Ire for someone that doesn’t know how to round up? For instance 0.9317 rounded up to 0.932? Ding, Ding, Ding

      guess elementary math isn’t for everyone

      • 42

        October 10, 2010 at 7:39 am

        You have no idea how funny what you just said really is. Also . . .

        You said Paul playing in 84.1 percent of games means he missed 25.9 percent, not 15.9 percent. Ding, Dong, Dung.

      • Joe Gerrity

        October 11, 2010 at 5:04 pm

        I guess elementary math isn’t for everyone!

        That must have been a lesson Van learned long ago, and never forgot, unlike subtraction…

      • 42

        October 11, 2010 at 6:20 pm

        The real humor is I’m wrapping up a Ph.D. in math. I was a string theorist before Katrina and now I’m a statistician. I’ve made more math-o’s than most (my word for a math typo), but I try not to base conclusions on them, even less, personal attacks. That’s why it’s always good to maintain some humor with or engender some sense of grace in your sparring partners.

        That’s why I was cracking up. You just can’t buy this kind of entertainment.

        The guy wrote more down below, but this little bit of noise . . . silenced. This bit I’m writing could make him say something, but we all know who took that round.

      • Joe Gerrity

        October 11, 2010 at 6:31 pm

        I want to write a post all about this. Since you owned him, I’ve been constantly checking back to see if he would respond.

      • 42

        October 11, 2010 at 6:47 pm

        Yeah, he’s just writing below. I don’t blame him. Once bitten, twice shy.

        “Step to the stage . . . too late, I blew it up” — Kid, to Play, House Party

  46. dwill

    October 9, 2010 at 10:10 pm

    D will is hands down better. though pauls stats may be better…. it is because he is on a team that depends souly on him. like iverson with the 76rs. pauls fans say we cant argue head to head cuz williams has a better team around him. and this is true…. williams has better players around him…and HE STILL PUTS UP NEAR CLOSE NUMBERS to paul. if williams were a hornet… his stats would be far better than pauls. the fact that he is on a better team AND IS STILL ABLE TO PUT UP THOSE KIND OF NUMBERS is incredible. u put paul on a team with the talent like utah and his numbers are no where close to derons.

    • 42

      October 9, 2010 at 11:10 pm

      If my grandmother had balls, she’d be my grandfather.” — Yiddish Saying (in English)

      dwill – Try using facts. Try typing numbers themselves instead of just using the word “numbers.” Only then will your arguments in prove. I BEElieve in you, c’mon.

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 11, 2010 at 4:58 pm

      I didn’t realize that I would have to explain the difference between advanced stats and simple things like assists per game to people.

      Instead of looking at assists, look at assist/TO rate, for example. One player dominates the other. DOMINATES!!!! (I can use caps, too) You might think that because their per game assist numbers are close, that their passing skills are equally close, but that’s just not the case. One guy turns it over 33% more often. That’s a huge difference that you just don’t seem to acknowledge exists.

      As for your teammate argument- with better teammates (who would presumably convert a higher percentage of open shots into points), Paul would likely have even an even higher ast/TO rate, whereas if Deron had worse teammates, his would be even lower.

      Long story short- you fail.

  47. hewhorocks

    October 9, 2010 at 10:59 pm

    I think D-will is good. However , No one who has any significant knowledge of the NBA would call him “one of the best ever” at this point. He might continue to develop but clearly his performance is not in the pantheon of all time greats. CP is in that pantheon. Paul’s injuries has clearly reduced his stock in the minds of many. Still to assert that D-Will is a better point guard from this point and forward you have to assume that he will continue to improve AND/OR CP will have significant injury issues or has had significant decline. D-Will is good but his stats dont compare, and as far as intangibles go pick your poison; rings, all-star games, significance to the team. Arguably D-Will wasnt even the best player on his own team last year. Still to be even handed D-Will did win the Taco Bell Skills Challenge in 2007? So there you have it! (Cept Brandon Jennings beat him last year so he’s clearly the best.)

  48. hewhorocks

    October 9, 2010 at 11:10 pm

    Van- “they cannot deny that if 60 percent of General Managers”

    Actually I easily refuted this misinterpretation of the vote in my first post in this thread. We can only assert that 43% of all the General managers prefer D-Will to Paul. The actual number may be higher but it can only be proven that 13 out of 30 actually prefer D-Will. Given that some may prefer Nash to D-Dwill, they may also prefer Paul which leads us to the conclusion that it is possible that more GM’s actually prefer Paul to D-Will.
    Venn Diagrams for the Win!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

    Again for what its worth.

    • 42

      October 9, 2010 at 11:11 pm

      It’s worth alot, hewhorocks.

      • Van

        October 10, 2010 at 1:26 am

        its possible is a key phrase in there but also you should take note of your usage of the word assume, which well isn’t really building your argument on a solid foundation because its based on 2 assumptions which you really have no idea what the real truth is.

        So out of the 28 general managers 50% voted for Williams, that is a statistical fact and while Dell may prefer Paul, you have no verification that he voted for Williams as he could have selected either Billups or Nash.

        Also you ignore the opinion of the very man you selected Williams over Paul in the draft, or Kevin O’Connor which for arguments sake, we know he likes Williams over Paul he drafted him, but he could have also selected Paul under the rules of the vote.

        Not to mention you have NO idea which General Managers didn’t vote in this section, so both the Utah and New Orleans GMs could have forgone this section meaning the vote is completely accurate or O’Connor could have selected Paul and Dell Nash which would have meant an even greater disparity in Williams favor.

        But save it be the old adage when you assume you make an ass out of you and me so lets just stick with what we know.

        Williams 50%
        Paul 35.7%

  49. hewhorocks

    October 10, 2010 at 12:58 am

    Yeah that who critical thinking thing….the bane of all hyperbole and headline grabbing pundits. Still if anyone likes D-Will better then of course they can. Someone with the ability to run a Multi-million dollar franchise thought that Billups was better than at least2 of these three “D-Will, Nash, CP-3” again cant say who that GM would have voted for if he had free reign.

    Not that this has any bearing to the argument but if you like D-Will best you will likely be very happy in most 10 man NBA fantasy leauges where he appears to be hitting the second round with regularity. (Paul is going top 3 picks over all fairly consistently) but fantasy player focus on stats so what do they know.

    • Van

      October 10, 2010 at 1:36 am

      Good things those fantasy leagues have so much bearing on the reality of how our teams perform in the regular season and into the playoffs. Maybe General Managers will take a note from your book and evaluate potential trades and free agent pick ups on their fantasy value? If this is where critical thinking has brought us then I fear for many.

      Perhaps all of Paul’s fantasy skills can propel the Hornets to failing to make the playoffs again this year, we can only hope…Perhaps you will take solace in making the fantasy playoffs with Paul?

  50. darkcoupon

    October 10, 2010 at 3:23 am

    If you’re going to argue statistics, you should probably Provide them:

    CP3 Career Stats:
    Games Played: 343, Minutes: 37.3, FG%: .473, 3PT% .353, FT% .848, OFF Rebs: 0.8, DEF Rebs: 3.9, TOT Rebs: 4.7, STL: 2.38, BLK: .09, Turnovers: 2.57, Fouls: 2.57, Assists: 10.0, Points: 19.3

    DWill Career Stats:
    Games Played: 386, Minutes: 35.3, FG%: .467, 3PT%: .361, FT% .799, OFF Rebs: 0.5, DEF Rebs: 2.6, TOT Rebs: 3.1, STL: 1.03, BLK: .23, Turnovers: 2.98, Fouls: 2.67, Assists: 9.0, Points: 16.7

    Now, if you’re going to say that Paul is the better player because his statistics are better than Deron’s, you have to consider their rolls on their teams and their supporting casts. The fact is that DWill has consistently been surrounded by better teams. His roll with the Jazz has essentially been as the facilitator and 2nd or 3rd scoring option. Although he has the talent to be the first scoring option, Utah’s system is not designed to have a shoot-first PG. Chris Paul, however, is the first option on New Orleans’ offense and his numbers reflect as much. The best argument to make in this case, is to look at the shooting percentages. They give better insight into a player’s abilities in regards to fundamentals and overall talent. In this case, they are nearly identical with the exception of Paul having a significant advantage on free throw percentage, which doesn’t really give any indication of how good he is during regular game play.

    As far as defense goes, Chris Paul has only made the All-Defense team because he led the league in steals. One of the only two measurable defensive statistics, the other being blocks. Both of which have been said to give no true indication of a player’s true defensive abilities. Having high numbers in the steals category only means that CP3 is good at taking risks. If you’re going to say that Chris Paul is the better defender, you have to look at the average performance of each players’ opponents. It’s 2am where I am, so I’m not about to research and see if anyone actually has these numbers right now. It is, however, a widely known fact that CP3 consistently allows bigger guards to have huge games when he is defending them, whereas Deron Williams has always been able to curb the performance of most any guard in the league, with the exception of very small, very fast guards like Aaron Brooks.

    So, to me, it looks like a toss up. Really, no matter who you would choose to be your point guard, I would choose the other man and be completely happy with him. It’s pointless to argue this point when both players still have 10+ years to play out their careers. Anything can happen, and only time will tell who the better guard will be.

    • 42

      October 10, 2010 at 7:57 am

      The system was not Paul first.

      Gettung may steals means he’s good at succeeding when taking risks. Same for high shootng percentage, assists, etc. Shooting etc. are all necessary risks.

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 11, 2010 at 6:46 pm

      I honestly don’t have to provide the stats, and those that you provided aren’t the same in which I am referring to.

      If you want to see them, go here-

      http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx

      Chris Paul wins in every single one except offensive rebounding rate. Not total rebounding rate, just offensive. Last year Paul even had more win shares, despite playing so many less games.

  51. Sun Tzu

    October 10, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    The problem with stats is that the Jazz are by far a better team than the Hornets. If Deron didn’t have as good of supporting players then he would have higher stats.

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 11, 2010 at 4:45 pm

      It would actually follow that he would have worse stats with less talent around him. Less assists, more turnovers, lower efficiency.

      Sure he might wind up with more points per game, and maybe even more rebounds per game, but the scoring almost certainly would be at a less efficient rate.

      By advanced stats I really, really, really don’t mean stuff like points per game (since that doesn’t even account for playing time).

      • 42

        October 11, 2010 at 6:29 pm

        Joe, don’t you understand: In their world, the world of these asserters, the `appearance-of-goodness’ of a team is a conserved quantity. Since the team is good, it takes away some appearance-of-goodness from Deron. Since the Hornets are worse, the contrary is true for Paul. Of course, the negative argument of how much worse we were without Paul does nothing to show how great Paul is . . . far too subtle a take. It involves subtraction . . . and we know how that goes . . .

        For them, teams can’t change. Players don’t grow. It’s black and white. It’s simple. It’s all some people can handle. No teams ever split series. Nothing is gray. Nothing is fun.

        I’m a Deron fan. I’m a Chris fan. That’s how I know the truth on this matter based on what we know now. What we know tomorrow could change all this.

  52. jim brinko

    October 11, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    Williams is on the court, Paul is, most likely, injured. I think, (avg) Paul has missed 20 games/ season. Maybe more

    • Joe Gerrity

      October 11, 2010 at 4:37 pm

      Sure is a good thing that your opinion about how many games Paul has missed means absolutely nothing. Read the damn article and you can see the real ones. Five percent.

      • Van

        October 11, 2010 at 5:47 pm

        except the fact that you excluded Paul’s last year based on a “fluke” injury your argument might have held some water. If your going to place your foundation of the article on objectivity of stats then you ought to provide them for one, and then not exclude those stats that shoot holes in your argument.

        If you were going to exclude Paul’s injury why not extend Williams the same favor by excluding the ankle injury he received by Derek Rose standing underneath him while he took a jump shot? This would have greatly reduced his number of missed games since the 3 prior years he had played 80, 80 and 82 games. Fact is there really is no such thing a “fluke” injury, some players get hurt others don’t, its all part of the game, its really quite simple.

      • Joe Gerrity

        October 11, 2010 at 6:28 pm

        Calling something a fact does not make it so. This is just another of the many things that you D-Willers do to try and convince yourselves.

        “Fact is there really is no such thing a “fluke” injury, some players get hurt others don’t, its all part of the game, its really quite simple.”

        If someone has television fall on their leg while moving it, that’s a fluke injury. So your “fact” isn’t really a fact.

      • Van

        October 11, 2010 at 10:32 pm

        By who’s definition then are we assuming what a fluke injury is since you seem as equally eager to pronounce yours as a fact as well. I remind you that Paul injured his knee during the course of a game against Golden State, not rearranging his furniture, so why is it a fluke?

        If you want to make an objective argument for both parties involved then perhaps more people will listen, but when you exclude relevant data because, then you look more like a blogger just slanting his article to prove his own points, biased in a word. Which is fine since your writing for a Hornets blog, just don’t label it arguments for Deron Williams then not represent the arguments fully are accurately.

        Maybe there is some merit to the fact that Williams is now favored by General Managers around the league and why more and more NBA players and annalist are taking Williams side as well?

  53. 42

    October 11, 2010 at 6:13 pm

    Van, I hereby declare that Deron Williams’ stats are inflated.

    How can you possibly counter my baseless assertion?

    Joe, I think you have to speak to these guys using their lingo. You are too distracted by things that actually happen. Those things are SOOOO in the past. Like totally in my backward light-cone. And stuff. Get with the times. We are dealing with an alternate reality here, it’s all quantumy and jazzy, and we need to learn their rules. In their world you just declare. I did it at lunch. I said I want a burger sans ketchup . . . voila . . . no ketchup, and they didn’t charge me extra. By the number 6 combo with no ketchup and a coke principle, Deron’s stats are inflated. I ate the burger, so it’s locked in.

    Now if you cover the quesadillas at Taco Bell, we can make sure Derrick Rose missed 20 games last year. Break!

    • Zang

      October 11, 2010 at 7:10 pm

      42,

      You really aren’t as funny as you think you are. I’m not saying you are boring. But your humor definitely isn’t translating well here. I’m basically reading gibberish.

      • 42

        October 11, 2010 at 9:28 pm

        Zang, you seem like good people, but I’m not trying to be funny, but you are exactly right in that I was spouting gibberish. It’s basically the same gibberish I’ve had to read in a number of comments on all sides of the argument of this post.

        Since arguing well hasn’t seemed to faze some, I’ve decided to embrace the movement and try to do a `When in Rome’ thing to better understand what’s going and to see if others see things the way I do, and I promise you, I promise you I will.

        So far, you seem to like the gibberish arguments as little a I do. Kudos. I like you.

  54. Florida Boy

    October 11, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    I think both these guys are good points…a few observations from stuff I read above… this is coming from a Heat fan…. don’t like the Jazz or the Hornets…

    To say that Paul is reaching Magic level is ridiculous. You guys must be too young to remember “Showtime”. If you bring in the stats, I have to agree with those Jazzercisers and say Stockton is #1. Just the lead he has in steals and assists ( playing with stiffs like Ostertag, Blue Edwards, Jeff Malone, etc….hahaha) is sick. He had 1 guy all those years there and he was dirty ass hell, but I liked him. Why? because if the Heat had Stockton instead of Sherman Douglas and Steve Smith I would have loved him.

    Second- I like Williams if I was a GM too. I was so happy when Miami passed on Boozer (well, other than getting the 3 kings). He is one of those guys that you see sitting on the bench in a nice suit too many times a year. Paul to me seems like one of those guys…. fragile. Even though DWill looks always nicked up too, at least he gets out on the court. I don’t know about the percentages of games missed and all that, but it seems that way. If Paul’s health stays on this track, he might tagged with that ageless phrase, “He’s great, when he plays”. Boozer has that tag. Paul isn’t there yet, but 2 more injury riddled seasons will put him there. Hopefully he can stay out on the court. I want the South Beach Kingdom to take down everyone at full strength….

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